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Do you want me to delete posting on Summers family?, if not relevant, think I got confused thinking Daisy related!...

Chris :)

Edits (had an idea that Mary Ann Summers might have been her Mother, as she was a witness on 1922 Marriage)

Chris please would you leave it there at least for now some of it is definitely relevant, and helps to have it to refer to :-) though I admit I am totally lost on Margaret Osborne :-S

Nyx. Did you find on the 1939 register who lived at 81 Darnley Road Gravesend, because that's were it states Margaret Osborne &Charles Henry Butcher lived on their 1935 marriage certificate. I see you asked in a previous post the occupation of Margarets father Frederick, it states a tram driver and I know Gravesend had trams.

Nyx. Did you find on the 1939 register who lived at 81 Darnley Road Gravesend, because that's were it states Margaret Osborne &Charles Henry Butcher lived on their 1935 marriage certificate. I see you asked in a previous post the occupation of Margarets father Frederick, it states a tram driver and I know Gravesend had trams.

Hi John

from 1939 register

"Household (1 Person)
81 Darnley Road , Gravesend M.B., Kent, England

This property was vacant in 1939 "

neighbours at 83, Edward & Alice Brown

Just come across this, while looking on news archives

Gravesend Reporter, North Kent and South Essex Advertiser 23 February 1907

Deaths

Summers- On the 8th inst Daisy Summers age 18 only daughter of the late E G Summers, Green St Green, at the National Hospital, Queens Square, Bloomsbury.

Name: Age at Death (in years): Order:
SUMMERS, DAISY 18 Order
GRO Reference: 1907 M Quarter in HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 440

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Post Office, Green Street Green, Darenth, Dartford, Kent, England

E G Summers Head Married Male 45 1856 Grocer & Baker Gravesend, Kent, England
Ellen Summers Wife Married Female 46 1855 - Southfleet, Kent,
Howard Summers Son Single Male 20 1881 Grocer & Baker Darenth, Kent, England
Stanley Summers Son Single Male 18 1883 Apprentice Writer & Grainer Gravesend, Kent, England
Herbert Summers Son Single Male 15 1886 Grocer's Asst Darenth, Kent, England
Daisy Summers Daughter - Female 12 1889 - Darenth, Kent,
Walter G Summers Son - Male 8 1893 - Darenth, Kent, England
William D Summers Son - Male 4 1897 - Darenth, Kent, England
Florence Moss Servant Single Female 18 1883 Servant Domestic -

SUMMERS, DAISY MAUD mmn SHILLITOE Order
GRO Reference: 1899 M Quarter in STROOD Volume 02A Page 613

parents

Marriages Jun 1881 (>99%)
SHILETTO Alice N. Aylesford 2a 758
SUMMERS Edward George N Aylesford 2a 758

More and more complicated :-S

The 1901 I have just posted is this couple,

Marriages Sep 1879 (>99%)

Keeble Ellen Dartford 2a 644
SUMMERS Edward Gregory Dartford 2a 644

childrens names on GRO give mmn as Keeble, here she is SUMMERS, DAISY KEEBLE Order
GRO Reference: 1888 S Quarter in DARTFORD Volume 02A Page 455


Deaths Mar 1905 (>99%)
Summers Edward Gregory 49 Dartford 2a 384

I think it needs to be worked out which Summers family is which, perhaps on a large sheet of paper lol, so here for reference

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census
The Post Office Green Street Green Dartford, Darenth, Kent, England

Ellen Summers Head Widow Female Baker 56 1855 Westwood Nr Gravesend
Stanley Gregory Summers Son Single Male Decorator 28 1883 Clarence St Gravesend
Walter Gordon Summers Son Single Male Student 18 1893 Green St Green Dartford
William Donald Keeble Summers Son Single Male Student 14 1897 Green St Green Dartford
Helen Eliza Summers Son's Widow Widow Female Grocer 27 1884 Hazeldene Cottage Eppign New Rd Buckhurst Hill
Edward Frank Summers Grandson - Male - 2 1909 Hazeldene Cottage Eppign New Rd Buckhurst Hill
Howard Martin Summers Grandson - Male - 0 1911 Hazeldene Cottage Eppign New Rd Buckhurst Hill
Angleo Sanger Servant Single Male Foreman Baker 25 1886 Brasted Kent
Albert Frank Stevens Servant Single Male Assistant Baker 20 1891 The Downs Northfleet

Hi Nyx. Well what a coincidence living nr Green St Green, I live not far away in Northfleey by A2. Getting back to Daisy Summers who died in 1907 don't think it was her who gave birth to Daisy Summers b 1902 and Chsrles Henry Summers b 1906 living in Harmer Street Gravesend with grandparents Edward George and Alice Summers, obviously this Daisy Summers is a different one to the Green St Green one. It certainly is all so complicated. Just can't understand why the birth of Margaret Osborne can't be found unless she had a different christian name or was never registered and definitely a different Frederick Osborne , than the one married to Daisy Summers. If I could find a Frederick Osborne in the 1911 census who was a tram driver it may give a lead but then that may not have been his occupation in 1911.

The only thing I can think of is that you buy the birth certs for the Butcher/Osborne children and see whether they indicate Margaret having a different surname/first name? But that seems unlikely.

However there is no Margaret or variant born at right time in Kent. so I'm stuck.

I think I may have asked before but who were the witnesses on the Butcher/Osborne marriage cert? They may not re relatives but could help .

I think I've looked at all the Fredericks in the Gravesend/Dartford areas on the 1911 census but nothing that vaguely matches.

What we really need is the 1921 census !

Nyx. I managed to get in contact with my friend today , his wife was Margaret Butcher, her mother being Margaret Osborne and he said that he thought Margaret Osbornes mother was a Small and they lived over in Southend, but unsure if they came over to live in Gravesend . Just looked at the marriage certificate for Charles Henry Butcher and Margaret Osborne,1935 . Father Frederick Osborne and just noticed the witnesses was a D. Small and a D M Osborne. . I found a marriage for a Frederick Osbourne and. Louise Frances Small in Bethnal Green but unsure if these could be the parents of Margaret Osborne b1916. Still unable to find a birth for her even under the name of mother Small. I thought good when he told me the name Small but I seem to have hit a blank wall again, especially as he said they came from Southend

Ooooh!

What about this? or am I just being hopeful because it combines the 2 names lol

Small Household (3 People)
62 Ingoldsby Road , Gravesend M.B., Kent, England

Donald Small 07 Jan 1896 Male River Seaman Donkey Man ? Married 187 1
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
Dorothy (M) Small (Osborne) 10 Sep 1897 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 187 3

Now it looks like this might be them, but not marrying till June qtr1944 though living together in 1939

OSBORNE Dorothy M Small Chatham 2a 2641
SMALL Donald Osborne Chatham 2a 2641


Maybe?
Births Dec 1897 (>99%)
Osborne Dorothy Mabel Elham 2a 1035 EDIT not sure about this birthas she may be in Folkestone in 1939
:-|

This is Donald's death, DOB matches the 1939 reg

England & Wales deaths 1837-2007
First name(s) DONALD
Last name SMALL
Gender Male
Birth day 7
Birth month 1
Birth year 1896
Age -
Death quarter 2
Death year 1969
District Dartford
County Kent
Volume 5F
Page 664
Country England

probate on https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills gives address as 5 Edwin St Gravesend.

This one is a year out, but right day and month...middle name Margaret...

England & Wales deaths 1837-2007 Transcription

First name(s) DOROTHY MARGARET
Last name SMALL
Gender Female
Birth day 10
Birth month 9
Birth year 1895
Age -
Death quarter 3
Death year 1977
District Dartford
County Kent
Volume 16
Page 0880
Country England

her probate gives address as Denholm Hse Denholm Road Northfleet

Just trying to see if this is a first marriage for Donald?

Marriages Dec 1917 (>99%)
McLeod Ada E Small Gravesend 2a 1566
Small Donald McLeod Gravesend 2a 1566

They had children the first of whom all died young

Births Dec 1918 (>99%)
Small Donald J W Mcleod Gravesend 2a 950
Births Mar 1921 (>99%)
Small Marjorie A McLeod Gravesend 2a 1242
Births Sep 1922 (>99%)
Small Ada E McLeod Gravesend 2a 1189
Births Dec 1923 (>99%)
Small George V D McLeod Gravesend 2a 1071

Alice survived married 1951
Phoebe
Iris F
Ronald
Frederick R all survived


Ada died, possibly very soon after birth of last child.
First name(s) ADA E
Last name SMALL
Gender Female
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year 1899
Age 32
Death quarter 1
Death year 1931
District Gravesend
County Kent
Volume 2A
Page 1128
Country England