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Oh my goodness!!!

How fantastic are you people on here??

plugging away ...continuously seaching!!

I SO VERY much appreciate all your time everyone has put on this!!

So pleased with the probate findings :-D

AND AND AND ... thank you so much for the 1911 finding!

Chris Ho ... the fatality that you found of John Page....what is that relating to?
is it the story that I told of the refugee lad?
or is John Page a relative somehow? Sorry if I have missed something...so much information! So so pleased with it all :-) :-)

I am in contact with the church historian at winterbourne parish church as she sent me a picture of charles bowen's grave stone. No mention of Bertha though. I will drop her an email and ask if she has any knowledge of Bertha's grave.]

Going to try and gather all this information together and file it.
The 1911 looks promising to me, married and even though maybe not born Bristol, the connection is there!!

I would love to know how to access the Asylum records!
I am not sure who or where to email :-( :-(

Thanks again all for your continuing research :-D

Re the asylum records:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/hospitalrecords/details.asp?id=2472

The records appear to be at Glamorgan Archives:

http://glamarchives.gov.uk/contact/

They have a research service, for a fee, if you can't go there yourself:

http://glamarchives.gov.uk/the-shop/research/

If you google county Asylum, Bridgend, there's lots of stuff online -

eg -

https://tinyurl.com/y7zggqdv

(not John Page, you mean below)

Well, looks a likely candidate for your story?, poor fella, definitely not used to coal mines where he comes from!, wonder how he ended up there with Charles...(notes that Welsh Newspaper Article states he was demobilised last March, having served throughout the war in France, Salonika and Palestine)

Chris :)

Deaths Dec 1919 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------
Pipe John F 31 Pontypridd 11a 633

1891 (Find My Past)
William Pipe Head Married Male 37 1854 Printer Compositor Middlesex, England
Angelina Pipe Wife Married Female 36 1855 - Middlesex, England
Winifred Pipe Daughter - Female 17 1874 Housemaid Middlesex, England
Angelina Pipe Daughter - Female 14 1877 Tailors Apprentice Middlesex, England
Mabel Pipe Daughter - Female 12 1879 - Middlesex, England
James W Pipe Son - Male 6 1885 - Middlesex, England
John F Pipe Son - Male 1 1890 - Middlesex, England
Beatrice Pipe Daughter - Female 0 1891 - Middlesex, England
Street Eagle Street
Town Holborn
Parish St Andrew Holborn Above the Bars and St George
County London, Middlesex
Registration district Holborn
Archive reference RG12
Piece number 218
Folio 158
Page 34


Births Sep 1889 (>99%) *(Born 5th June 1889, according to Baptism)
-----------------------------------------------------
Pipe John Frederick Holborn 1b 630


28 November 1919 - Monmouthshire Beacon - Monmouth, Gwent, Wales

Londoner Killed at Coedely
John Frederick Pipe, (3l). collier, residing 3, Pengarreg-road, Tonyrefail. was fatally injured by fall of roof the Coedely Collieries. He was attended to Drs. D. Naunton Morgan and J. E. Brereton. A native of Islington, his father is employed as a compositor on one of the London dailies.


http://www.welshcoalmines.co.uk/GlamEast/Coedely.htm

(interesting, photo's/info. on Colliery)


Edits (what are addresses given on below?)

Births Sep 1915 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Bowen Florence H Smart Pontypridd 11a 1214


Births Mar 1917 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------
Bowen Harold L Smart Pontypridd 11a 1096


http://www.frenchaymuseumarchives.co.uk/NewMuseum.htm

(above, as mentioned before, very useful!)

Well Thank you Chris for finding this info!!

I did mean John Pipe!

Definitely the story I was told!

It's so great to find out that the story is true rather than never knowing what happened!!

I am now wanting to collate the information found - starting with Charles Bowen...
is it safe to say the Ellesmere Charles is the one for us??

Thanks for your help.

We can't prove that Ellesmere Charles is definitely the right one, but he certainly seems the most likely candidate so far.

Born as Bowen in the right year, in the right area.
Listed as Williams in 1881 and 1891 while living with mother Elizabeth (nee Bowen) and stepfather Thomas Williams.
Reverted to birth surname by 1901 when it's probably him in Winterbourne, with Bucknell given as birthplace.
Married as Bowen in 1903.
With uncle Charles in 1911, listed as married.

Probably gave father's name as John Bowen to cover up the fact that he didn't know his father's name.

Just can't prove definitely that he's the one who married Martha.
If only they appeared together on a census! As AQ says, we'll maybe have to wait for the 1921 census.

Thanks for the summary AG,

Can you tell me then, the previous posts of Charles's mother Elizabeth being married to a Vaughan and then being widowed after - Is that all being disregarded now??

Still slightly confused :-S :-)

In my opinion (and others may disagree) Elizabeth Vaughan / Whoever is nothing to do with Ellesmere Charles.

If Elizabeth Williams / Vaughan / Bowen / Whoever was his mother, and later married Thomas Williams, then Blanche's mms would have been Williams instead of Bowen.

Besides which, it 's not feasible that the Elizabeth Bowen who married Thomas Williams in 4th Quarter 1880 (ie - Ellesmere Charles's mother) could be the same Elizabeth who married John Bowen on 2nd August 1880.

Sorry for delay in response!
Thanks for your input AG!!

Would love to know if people agree or whether we are barking completely up the wrong tree !??

Chris Ho ??
AustinQ???

Opinions would really be appreciated please?

What do I need to confirm 'our Charles' is the right one??
Any Certs help?

Thanks everyone!

Look forward to your responses!!

Unfortunately, I don't think there is any way to prove completely that he is the right one.

You can only go on the info on his marriage cert - ie - age, place of residence at time of marriage, and father's name.

Ellesmere Charles fits the first two, but we don't know his father's name.

Do we definitely know he is illegitimate?
And John who he said is his dad was it a made up name?
Why would he make it up? Would he of not left it blank or gone with Thomas Williams name? Maybe not with him being a Bowen !

I'm so struggling!
I really appreciate your input AG!

Would appreciate other people's thoughts too ??
I think everyone may have a headache from this thread

:-D

Trouble is you have nothing definite to go on...(as friustrating as it al is!)

As said earlier, look at Bertha, names Father as Albert Smart...(and there is an Albert about at the time also)

Have you traced the families of Charles/Bertha children...(also, as said earlier, are they shared by any other GR Members, somebody might hold a snippet)

That Frenchay Museum Archive, looks useful, sometimes things can be picked up from just going through Parish Baptisms etc.

At the moment that question mark remains...

Chris :)

That is very true Chris, Bertha was definitely illegitimate!!

1921 census....that's such a long wait :-(

I am going to look at siblings and Bertha's family...trace her mother Elizabeth Bisp.

I will also scour the parish records as something might jump out at me!!

I did wonder whether if purchasing Ellesmere Charles birth cert would help?
would it show any more details that the parish record doesnt show? Address at birth??
could that be connected to a census ?

Clutching at straws....

Yes, I think we can definitely say Ellesmere Charles was illegitimate.

His birth record doesn't state mms, which implies his mother wasn't married.

Her maiden name was Bowen, as stated on her daughters' birth records, and Charles was born a year before she married Thomas Williams.



John Bowen is stated as the father of the Charles who married Bertha.
So either that's true, and he's a different Charles - though we haven't found any likely Charles / John combination in earlier censuses. (Although it's not impossible that both his parents were Bowens, although not married.)

Or it's not true, and Charles invented him to cover up the fact that he didn't know who his father was, in which case he may indeed be Ellesmere Charles..

We just don't know!


Of course, (just to give you more of a headache) there is this John Bowen, born and living in Wellington and about the same age as Elizabeth. :

John Bowen
in the 1881 England Census
Name: John Bowen
Age: 21
Estimated birth year: abt 1860
Relationship to Head: Son
Father: John Bowen
Mother: Mary Bowen
Gender: Male
Where born: Castle Lane, Shropshire, England [Wellington]
Civil Parish: Wellington
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England
Street address: Castle Lane
Occupation: Forge Lab
Registration district: Wellington
Sub registration district: Wellington
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2680
Folio: 97
Page Number: 16
Household Members:
Name Age
John Bowen 52
Mary Bowen 47
Thomas Bowen 23
John Bowen 21
Hannah Bowen 9


John Bowen
in the 1861 England Census
Name: John Bowen
Age: 2
Estimated birth year: 1859
Relation: Son
Father's name: John Bowen
Mother's name: Mary Bowen
Gender: Male
Where born: Wellington, Shropshire, England
Civil Parish: Wellington
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England
Registration district: Wellington
Sub-registration district: Wellington
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 224
Piece: 1899
Folio: 53
Page Number: 46
Household Members:
Name Age
John Bowen 29
Mary Bowen 27
Rachel Bowen 7
Harriot Bowen 6
Thomas Bowen 4
John Bowen 2


???

John Bowen
in the 1871 England Census
Name: John Bowen
Age: 13
Estimated birth year: abt 1858
Relation: Son
Father's name: John Bowen
Mother's name: Mary Bowen
Gender: Male
Where born: Shropshire, England
Civil Parish: Attercliffe cum Darnall
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
Town: Attercliffe
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Registration district: Sheffield
Sub-registration district: Attercliffe
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Household schedule number: 301
Piece: 4698
Folio: 98
Page Number: 65
Household Members:
Name Age
John Bowen 42
Mary Bowen 32
Rachael Bowen 18
Harriett Bowen 17
Thomas Bowen 15
John Bowen 13
Sarah Bowen 10
Mary Brown 5


John Bowen
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Birth Index, 1837-1915
Name: John Bowen
Registration Year: 1858
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration district: Wellington Sal
Inferred County: Shropshire
Volume: 6a
Page: 703


Hmm, interesting - just before Charles's birth -

John Bowen
in the West Yorkshire, England, Prison Records, 1801-1914
Name: John Bowen
Birth Year: abt 1858
Birth Place: Wellington, Shropshire
Age: 21
Event Date: 25 Nov 1879
Prison or Quarter Session: HMP Wakefield
Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire, England
Sentence: Imprisonment or Servitude

Convicted, along with a Cornelius Wilks, of stealing 22.5 lbs of brass, and sentenced to 9 (I think it says 9) months hard labour (I think it says HL).
He was a furnaceman.

I don't see him in censuses after 1881.

???

John Bowen
in the England & Wales, Criminal Registers, 1791-1892
Name: John Bowen
Date of Trial: 2 Apr 1883
Trial Year: 1883
Location of Trial: Shropshire, England
Sentence: 6 months Imprisonment

Convicted, along with a Richard Picken for unlawfully wounding.
No age or occupation given, so don't know if the same man or not.

There's a John Bowen in court in Shropshire in the 1850's, so maybe him, and therefore maybe not the one born c1858.

Just a possibility - but could be anyone:

Jno Bowen
in the UK, Outward Passenger Lists, 1890-1960
Name: Jno Bowen
Gender: Male
Age: 33
Birth Date: abt 1859
Departure Date: 16 Mar 1892
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Destination Port: New York, USA
Ship Name: City of Chicago
Master: Arthur Redford

Oh my goodness AG??

Could that be charles's father?

Is that why he wasnt named as his father?
So it looks illegitimate but isnt?
He was in prison so wasnt named as father??

ahhhhh!!!

This could all link up too??

and just before charles birth!!

I might have a look in the british newspaper archives, see if anything comes up!

:-D

Whether or not John was Charles's father, (and we'll never know for sure) I would say his birth was still illegitimate.

Elizabeth's maiden surname was Bowen, and there's no record of a marriage between a John Bowen and an Elizabeth Bowen in the right area.

Okay, thanks AG,

So we are definitely going with the Ellesmere Charles.

It's now John Bowen that is a question mark also!

Think for now I am going to just research the siblings and other branches.

Although I will have a look through the parish records and newspaper archives too!
Plus I need to have a proper look through some of what was posted previously, funeral posting etc
:-)

Notice how quiet I've been? I really didn't want the headache today!

Squeaky, did you contact the Glamorgan archives re Charles admission/ asylum records? (I think AG posted the web address earlier)

If you couldn't get there it might be worth asking if they can help- or see what the charge is for them to look.

If his records contained an exact date of birth, we'd have a better chance at finding the correct man.

Hello Austin!

Thanks for returning and risking the chance of a headache!

I did send an email to Glamorgan Archives. Because of bank holiday there may be a longer delay on replying though.

In the meantime, I could have a look on the GR boards to see if anyone is near enough and is planning a trip to the archives maybe :-)