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Really need to look at the original 1841 return.
Mary ,and Elizabeth's ages have l been rounded down to the nearest 5yrs

Mary would be age 25
Elizabeth would be age 21 (ish)
Daughter Margaret would be age 37 in 1841

1yr old Mary Kibble appears to be the daughter of son Thomas with Margaret Dalziel

I guess perhaps Sarah 1st did die and was replace with another?


Yes Austin, that 1890 death does belong to Elizabeth Kibble and we know for sure that her father was this James Kibble.
Address on 1849 marriage announcement matches.

(grief, confusion reigns, think Pauline and Nicola S need a Kibble 'Meet', lol)

Chris :)

(has Pauline obtained that list with BMD info. direct from S/People, or is it taken from elsewhere?)

I thought the first Sarah died- then a second Sarah was born after Elizabeth- making Elizabeth the second daughter??

Listed on the 1841 page 1:

KEBBLE James M 60 Merchant Outside Census County (1841)
KEBBLE Mary F 20 Outside Census County (1841)
KEBBLE Elisabeth F 20 Outside Census County (1841)
KEBBLE Sarah F 15 Outside Census County (1841)
KEBBLE Margt F 25 Independent Outside Census County (1841)
KEBBLE Mary F 1 Outside Census County (1841)

I think I've lost the plot?!

Elizabeth's death:
Name: Elizabeth Kibble Hervey
Estimated birth year: abt 1820
Registration Year: 1890
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at Death: 70
Registration district: Macclesfield
Inferred County: Cheshire
Volume: 8a Page: 109

(ooerr!, GL, that ain't good, lol)

Chris :)

25 April 1895 - Glasgow Herald - Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland

Death
At Park Place, Cove, Dunbartonshire, on the 22nd inst., in her 79th year, Mary Kibble, widow of Thomas Gordon, writer, Glasgow. Friends, please accept of this (the only) intimation.

Births in order :
No births on SP for Elizabeth, John or George

KIBBLE
THOMAS
JAMES KIBBLE/MARY FERRIER FR269 (FR269)
0
27/07/1802
644/2
10 260
Gorbals
--------------

KIBBLE
MARGARET
JAMES KIBBLE/MARY FERRIER FR419 (FR419)
0
13/01/1804
646/
20 194
Govan
-----------------

KIBBLE
WILLIAM
JAMES KIBBLE/MARY FERRIER FR423 (FR423)
0
17/02/1806
646/
20 202
Govan
-----------------

KIBBLE
JAMES
JAMES KIBBLE/MARY FERRIER FR427 (FR427)
0
19/12/1807
646/
20 210
Govan
-----------------

KIBBLE
THOMAS
JAMES KIBBLE/MARY FERRIER FR431 (FR431)
0
16/05/1810
----------------------

KIBBLE
SARAH
JAMES KIBBLE/MARY FERRIER FR433 (FR433)
0
08/01/1812
646/
20 223
Govan
----------------------

KIBBLE
ROBERT
JAMES KIBBLE/MARY FERRIER FR437 (FR437)
0
12/08/1814
646/
20 230
Govan
--------------------

KIBBLE
MARY
JAMES KIBBLE/MARY FERRIER FR440 (FR440)
0
13/06/1816
646/
20 236
Govan
---------------------------

Daughters Sarah and Mary were both older than Elizabeth yet Elizabeth is described as 2nd daughter?

Was Sarah the youngest Daughter? (posted earlier)

Chris :)

12 December 1857 - Paisley Herald and Renfrewshire Advertiser - Paisley

Marriage
At St. Andrew's Episcopal Church ,Glasgow, on the 8th instant, by the Rev. Dr. Gordon, Richard Black, Esq., to Sarah, youngest daughter of the late James Kibble, Esq.


(also, just added)

03 May 1851 - Glasgow Sentinel - Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland

Marriage
At Glasgow, on the 29th the ultimo, by the Rev. J.T.S Gordon A.M., Thomas Gordon, Esq., writer, Glasgow to, Mary, eldest daughter of James Kibble, Esq.


01 December 1849 - Glasgow Gazette - Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland

Marriage
At Park Place, Paisley road, on the 27th ult., by the Rev. James F.S. Gordon, James Hervey, Esq., Manchester, to Elizabeth, second daughter of James Kibble, Esq., Glasgow.


Edits (would imagine quite a few items for Australia, on below)

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/search?adv=y

copied and pasted :

Mary & James had children-
Thomas 1802 (died prior to 1810)
Margaret 1804
William1806
James 1807-1843 Married Sarah Hervey1839
Elizabeth 1808? Married a James Hervey
Thomas 2 1810-1841 married Margaret Dalziel 1839
Sarah 1 1812
Robert 1814 Married Eliza McCloud 1837 Emmigrated to Australia 1839-1843
Mary 1816 -1895 Married Thomas Gordon 1851
John 1819-1894 Never Married
George Augustus Frederick 1822-1879 Married Mary McGeorge 1843 Emmigrated to Australia with brother Robert
Sarah 2 1824 or 1825


Something is amiss with the above information.
*Elizabeth b 1808? married James Hervie/Hervey
Elizabeth could not be born in 1808 and must have been the youngest daughter

She married James Hervey in 1849
They moved to Manchester where they are found with their Manchester born children until 1881.
( 1808 birth suggests she would be over 40 yrs when she married in 1849)


Elizabeth drops off all census records after 1881
Elizabeths approx year of birth on all census returns is 1821, and shows that she born on the Isle of Bute.

It's coming back to me now....
Husband James Hervey was a similar age to Elizabeth but he was born in Mauritius
Therefore, he could not be the son of James Hervey with either wives, Jean Winning or Isabella Kibble.
He has to be their grandson!

I imagine that the term 'woman of colour' just meant she was not British white. My Grandad was half Asian (Eurasion), but his children/ family all look to be white.

Oh of course....The Kibble Palace at The Botanic Gardens.!
I would never have made the connection.

Yes, Any of the Scotland's People Centres ( Edinburgh, Glasgow or Ayr) would be the best bet for obtaining documents
However if the records that you are looking for relating to the Ferriers are not found on an online search of the site, it suggests that they didn't exist or that they didn't survive.

http://www.glasgowlife.org.uk/libraries/the-mitchell-library/pages/home.aspx

think that would be Mitchell Library, for research, GL will be the one with the knowledge for that!)

Chris :)

Wow all the above is making my head spin, the chance Mary may have been of colour. I guess it would be an explanation as why she is so hard to find. I have a photo of her son George A F and he looks white. The two sons who came out to Australia both did quiet well for themselves. George owned a great deal of land, and even donated land to build a school in the town of Denman N.S.W.. He also donated money towards the building of the Church. He was also appointed to the Bar As a Magistrate. Brother Robert we think became a horse breeder. The Kibble descendants in Australia number into the hundreds.

To Chris Ho, you mentioned I may have to come over to Scotland to find out more, one of my cousins is going to Paris for work and has organised to have three days in a London and two in a Glasgow. Can you recommend some places she should try to get further info. As her time there unfortunately will be limited.
She is going to see James Kibble burial place to see if a Mary is anywhere there.

Glasgow Lass, yes you are correct about the Hervey Kibble marriages. I do have the Wills of james Kibble 1777-1856 also
Will of Thomas Kibble (father)
And of James Kibble son who died 1843 and married Sarah Hervey. I have quiet a lot of Info. On Kibble line, it is just the elusive Ferrier's we are stumped on.


The house of a Mary & James "Park Place" Paisley Rd Glasgow was torn down years after James death and sent by barge to Rosneath Cove where parts of it were rebuilt for James's Granddaughter Margaret Gordon.
It is still standing today.
The barge then bought back the Kibble Glass Conservatory which now stands in Glasgow Botanical Gardens and was originally at Coulport House Cove the home of son John Kibble
Thank you to all who have posted above.

To Clarify:
Ferrier/Cochran Banns were read in both Kilbarchan & Paisley Renfrewshire
Banns would usually be read on 3 consecutive Sundays starting with date on each
.
Either one of the OPR entries should confirm who lived in Paisley and who was in Kilbarchan
Very occasionally,is the OPR is annotated with actual date and place of marriage but it was tradition to marry in the Bride's parish.
OPR Marriage Banns almost never list parents


COCHRAN
MARY
JOHN FARRIER/FR1415 (FR1415)
31/12/1743
559/
40 131
**Abbey ( This is Paisley)

FERRIER
JOHN
MAREY COCHRAN/FR457 (FR457)
21/01/1744
568/
20 45
***Kilbarchan

I'm pretty certain the first Mary born 1844 must have died (as did the first William born 1848).

The newspaper articles place John as the eldest son.

Name Mary Farrier
Gender Female
Christening Date 24 Nov 1744
Christening Place , ABBEY (PAISLEY), RENFREW, SCOTLAND
Birth Date 13 Nov 1744
Father's Name John Farrier
Mother's Name Mary Cochran

Name John Farrier
Gender Male
Christening Date 09 May 1746
Christening Place , ABBEY (PAISLEY), RENFREW, SCOTLAND
Birth Date 04 May 1746
Father's Name John Farrier
Mother's Name Mary Cochran

Name William Farrier
Gender Male
Christening Date 15 Apr 1748
Christening Place , ABBEY (PAISLEY), RENFREW, SCOTLAND
Birth Date 12 Apr 1748
Father's Name John Farrier
Mother's Name Mary Cochran

Name William Farrier
Gender Male
Christening Date 04 Mar 1751
Christening Place , ABBEY (PAISLEY), RENFREW, SCOTLAND
Birth Date 23 Feb 1751
Father's Name John Farrier
Mother's Name Mary Cochran

Name James Farrier
Gender Male
Christening Date 27 Sep 1753
Christening Place , ABBEY (PAISLEY), RENFREW, SCOTLAND
Birth Date 22 Sep 1753
Father's Name John Farrier
Mother's Name Mary Cochron

Name Alexander Ferrier
Gender Male
Birth Date 22 Feb 1762
Birthplace KILBARCHAN,RENFREW,SCOTLAND
Father's Name John Ferrier
Mother's Name Mary Cochran

Name Mary Ferrior
Gender Female
Christening Date 19 Jul 1764
Christening Place , ABBEY (PAISLEY), RENFREW, SCOTLAND
Birth Date 10 Jul 1764
Father's Name John Ferrior
Mother's Name Mary Cochron

(not sure if below is him, Alexander Ferrier, and a John Ferrier, as Owner's Name on there also)

Chris :)

All Slave Registers of former British Colonial Dependencies, 1813-1834 (Ancestry)

(says they are in lawful possession of Charles Shepherd, one of the Executors of William Ferrier, late of the Town of St. George deceased the late proprietor)

Jenny
abt 1757 Grenada 1817 William Ferrier ?

Sarah
abt 1764 Grenada 1817 William Ferrier ?

Sylvie
abt 1766 Grenada 1819 William Ferrier ?

Zoe (Male)
abt 1782 Grenada 1817 William Ferrier


(probably more items on google search, think you need to see if anything on below would be useful, or where else you could access Grenada Records)

https://grenadanationalarchives.wordpress.com/2007/06/12/grenada-records-births-marriages-and-deaths/


(and below, from google search)

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=141898.27

Marriage:mn[7221]
Marriage: 1744 Paisley,Renfrew,Scotland
Marriage: 1744/JAN/7 Paisley,Renfrew,Scotland
Marriage: 1744/JAN/21 Kilbarchan,Renfrew,Scotland
Husband: Ferrier John pn[17846] Sex M (-1719-1762-)
Birth: 1719/abt Paisley,Renfrew,Scotland
Wife: Cochran Mary pn[17845] Sex F (-1730-1762-)
Child #1: Ferrier Mary pn[26540] Sex F (-1744-)
Christening: 1744/NOV/30 Kilbarchan,Renfrew,Scotland
Child #2: Ferrier Alexander pn[17844] Sex M (-1762-)
Birth: 1762/FEB/22 Kilbarchan,Renfrew,Scotland


(think you need a holiday in Scotland just looking up records, lol)

I think this could be a reference to William's death (on Ancestry). As we know from the newspaper reports above, he did have a brother Alexander that also went abroad.

Directory of Scottish Settlers in North America, 1625-1825. Vol. IV

Ferrier William. Grenada. To his brother Alexander Ferrier in Grenada 29th March 1811.
--------------------------------------------

Alex baptism:
Name Alexander Ferrier
Gender Male
Birth Date 22 Feb 1762
Birthplace KILBARCHAN,RENFREW,SCOTLAND
Father's Name John Ferrier
Mother's Name Mary Cochran

GAFK,
As you know, there are a number of threads relating to different branches of this family.
I posted on your other thread earlier.

Your post here at 8.22 confirms that James Kibble who died in 1858 aged 80yr, was the son of Thomas Kibble and Sarah Martin.

Nicola's original thread actually started with James's sister.

She was Isabella Kibble b 1767 who married widower, James Hervie in Paisley 1798
They died in Manchester in 1832 and 1841 respectively.


I have a vague memory that at least 2 of the children born this particular James Hervie married back into the Kibble family.

Son James Hervie from his 1st marriage with Jean Winning married Elizabeth Kibble daughter of James Kibble.
( therefore there was no biological link between husband/wife))

Daughter Sarah Hervie from his 2nd marriage with Isabella Kibble was the girl who married James Kibble (jnr).
This would make them 1st cousins

During the trials reported in the paper this was a statement recorded about William (born 1851), the son of John Ferrier and Mary Cochran:

Paisley Herald and Renfrewshire Advertiser - Saturday 05 July 1862

...and William brought home with him a young woman, who was said to be his daughter, and who married a man of the name of Kibble in Paisley. I never heard from William Ferrier myself that she was his daughter, but common report said so, I have seen her but not often. When William left again for the West Indies he left her behind him for her education either in Paisley or Glasgow.

...I depone as follows:- The said reputed daughter of William Ferrier was a woman of colour, but it was commonly reported that he acknowledged her as his daughter, educated her, and left her his fortune, but whether he was married to her mother or not I have never heard anything about it. Re interrogated for the persuer, I depone that it is not of my own knowledge that I speak of Mrs Kibble as a woman of colour.

...I knew a William Ferrier who went to the West Indies; he was old John Ferrier's son and a mason to trade. Mary Cochran ws his mother. There was a coloured female came over to this country who was said to be a daughter of the last mentioned William Ferrier. I was in school with her; she was said to be the natural daughter of William Ferrier.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

So from this, it sounds as if Mary Ferrier (husband of James Kibble) was not born in Scotland, but came (possibly from Grenada), to Scotland with her father to be educated.

There are possibly more articles with information. Most agree that John Ferrier and Mary Cochran had sons John, Hugh, Alexander and William, and a daughter Mary. Both William and Alexander went abroad.
-------------------------------------

Scots in the West Indies, 1707-1857, Volume 2
FERRIER William, a mason in Grenada 1805...the in Glasgow 1810.

There was an article I posted on one of the threads- not sure which one as there are a few re this family, but it stated that William was born 1751. Perhaps you can link the correct line through the other info given in the article (namely Mary Ferrier born 1764 that married Walter Ure in 1787 Glasgow):

The article concerns the estate of Dr Peter Cochrane of Clippens

Paisley Herald and Renfrewshire Advertiser - Saturday 02 May 1863

...if Perter Cochrane the younger is found to have been a domiciled Scotchman at his death in 1835 his next of kin by the Scotch law are the descendants of his father's Aunt, Mary Cochrane who was married to her cousin, John Ferrier in 1744.

...From evidence in our informants possession these descendants would appear to embrace the present Ferrier family, also the descendants of William Ferrier, who was born in 1751 and said to have emigrated to Grenada, and the descendants of Mary Ferrier born 1764 and who was married to Mr Walter Ure of Glasgow....
-------------------------------------

Marriage:
Name John Ferrier
Spouse's Name Mary Cochran
Event Date 21 Jan 1744
Event Place Kilbarchan,Renfrew,Scotland

There were several children- some died young and names were repeated. These are the Ferrier children mentioned in the article:

Name William Farrier
Gender Male
Christening Date 04 Mar 1751
Christening Place , ABBEY (PAISLEY), RENFREW, SCOTLAND
Birth Date 23 Feb 1751
Father's Name John Farrier
Mother's Name Mary Cochran

Name Mary Ferrior
Gender Female
Christening Date 19 Jul 1764
Christening Place , ABBEY (PAISLEY), RENFREW, SCOTLAND
Birth Date 10 Jul 1764
Father's Name John Ferrior
Mother's Name Mary Cochron
----------------------------------------------

Other articles also make reference to other children- John (the eldest son, a warper from Kilbarchen and later Paisley, who married twice without issue), and Hugh (the second son, who married Janet McTaggart, and had son William Ferrier)

Yes Chris Ho
it is all so frustrating. Also mentioned in the article about their son John Kibble it stated his mother was a heiress to the a Ferrier fortune.
Yet nothing can be found about her or Father William

(does all seem frustrating GL!, saw below, from other 'Thread', not sure if Pauline has a copy)...

(and things Mary Ferrier/and Parents etc., a Surname perhaps one for spelling variants!)

Chris :)

(quote)

Also a James Hervey mentioned in the Will of James Kibble 1777-19/8/1856 (married to Mary Ferrier)
He was one of the Executors of the Will, and also mentioned as Son in Law, husband of Elizabeth Kibble Hervey


Edits (just seen above posting with reply, so seems Nicola S unable to help then, oh dear, lol)


12 December 1857 - Paisley Herald and Renfrewshire Advertiser - Paisley

Marriage
At St. Andrew's Episcopal Church ,Glasgow, on the 8th instant, by the Rev. Dr. Gordon, Richard Black, Esq., to Sarah, youngest daughter of the late James Kibble, Esq.


http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/

(or available on Find My Past/ Genes, subscription needed, but things do crop up, just time needed, and various keywords, not always the obvious, addresses from Certs. etc. can help)