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Ooops

OLD thread, mgnv

Didn't you notice the dates?

Dea -

The birth rego that Joseph actually signed is now held at North Sefton RD.
The GRO holds a copy of these rego's (sim Ms & Ds) which they now digitize and transfer to their specialized cert forms.
This cert form says:
"CERTIFIED to be a true copy of an entry in the certified copy of a Register of Births in the District above mentioned."

Even if you buy the b.cert from the local RD, most local RDs lack the capability of digitizing and transferring their own regos, so you'll usually get a hand-transcibed copy - Birmingham is the only exception I know of.

Marrs are a bit difft. Pre-1898, only C of E, C of W, jews, quakers and registrars were approved to keep official marr rego's.
Post-1898, other non-conformists could apply to be approved to keep official marr rego's. Apart from the registrars, when an official marr rego was full (usually 600 entries, just like Bs & Ds), and the local registrars' copy of this rego had been checked, the church's original rego was deposited in some archive, usually the county archive. One can buy an official m.cert from the appropriate church if the entry's in their current rego.

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http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1920
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Year Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
COOPER Fred Joseph HESKETH Mabel Gertrude 1920 Ormskirk Register Office or Registrar Attended Preston RM/70/108

If the church was not approved to keep an official marr rego, then a registrar would have to attend with his official rego for the couple to sign to complete the ceremony.
Post-1898, most non-conformist churches were approved to keep an official marr rego. The major exceptions were pre-1904, when there's a but if a muddle, and later, newly opened churches (in process). One important major exception is RCs, who chose not to apply until 1980-ish.

This might be relevant for someone with an Italian heritage. I would imagine RC marrs for 1920 would be held by the RC Diocese of Liverpool - check Ancestry. Even though a 1920 RC parish marr entry would not be an official one, and would differ markedly from an official one as it was probably Latinized, they are worth checking.



Here's an example from my wife's family:

Marriage: 7 Jan 1840 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
Patricium McCann -
Hannam Heaton -
Groom's Parents: Samuelis McCann, de Drogheda in Hibernia & Bergittae
Bride's Parents: Danielis Heaton, de Comtu. Carloviensi in Hibernia & Hannae
Witness: Edwardo Diamond; Birgitta Smith
Married by: T. Dilworth M.A.
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1840, Page 53
Source: Original register at LRO

This lists her ggg gran as Bridget (she died in 1836), and says she and Samuel came from Drogheda in Ireland.
Also, the Heatons came from Co Carlow

The only tricky Latinizations are:
James becomes Jacobi (with various case endings)
William/Gwylim becomes Gulielmo (with various case endings)

Nouns (e.g., names) had cases (e.g., subject, object, possessive) with their own case-endings in Anglo-saxon (and still do in German), but they've been dropped in Englisf apart from the possessive 's. They do still exist in Emglish pronouns,

Tom hit Harry, Harry hit Tom.
He hit me, I hit him.

Hi Joanie

We are looking for Frank too! I have dropped you a message
Best wishes
Jo

Thank you Folks.

Heyjudeb4beatles, sorry i thought you had the rolls as i saw someone doing this on here a few yrs ago doing this, will try to get to Liverpool on tuesday 17th and check them out....

You learn some thing new as i managed to find the article on the assault in Southport, him being a Baker/ice cream maker is interesting as Frank the son was a chef and Mary (his wife ? ) was a waitress....But the railway worker looks very good for the year 1913 as that is what is on Franks birth cert, maybe he had to change jobs as we know employment wasn't easy them days.

Well i do believe Joseph was Louisa & Franks Pa but did he marry Mary ? i am sure i will discover something about this in 2017....Once again THANK YOU FOLKS.x ;-)

found this

Britain ,Trade Union membership registers transcription

Joseph Cooper - birth year 1887 - admission year 1913 - age 26
Occupation/grade Labourer - Trade Railway Workers -
Union name - National Union of Railwaymen - Union branch Southport Lancashire -
Archive Modern Records Centre - Archive ref. MSS.127/NU/OR/2/28 -
Folio or page 68 - Title General Register - Date Apr-May 1913

no saying your Joseph Cooper

Mavis

(posted by AustinQ on 5th January at 08.09 -

"Can't see anything obvious in the papers either- only thing was a report in July 1910 of a Joseph Cooper (native of Italy) described as an organ grinder and icecream vendor who was sentenced at Liverpool to 5 months imprisonment for stabbing someone in Southport"


Could this be Joseph Cooper otherwise Azzoli Guisseppo?


England & Wales, Crime, Prisons & Punishment, 1770-1935

Piece number 281

Series HO140

Source A Calendar Of Prisoners Tried At The Assizes For The Year 1910

>>>>>>First name(s) Joseph Or Azzoli

>>>>>>Last name Cooper Or Guisseppo

Year 1910

Birth year 1888

Occupation Baker

County Lancaster

Place -

Court Liverpool

Age 22

Date 18 Jul 1910

Category Institutions & organisations

Subcategory Prison registers

Collections from Great Britain

I don't believe they are online - you will have to go to the library and manually search; that's why I said it could be a nightmare to search.

Jude

6 GROVE ST SOUTHPORT...Was on 1913 birthcert were they there before and after please plus 6 HEYBURN ROAD TUEBROOK LIVERPOOL WAS ON 1939 Register ...with just Frank and a Mary Cooper.

was Joseph on any of these rolls please....Joanie x

If you know the address it's relatively easy to search the electoral rolls....but if not it's a nightmare

Jude

The cert is re-written it is same handwriting Dea, i have had no luck as yet with contacting all the Mary Valentine's, over half have replied.

No AustinQ i don't have Louisa's birth cert, only just got Franks, the report in the papers looks interesting though.

Thank you for the 1911 census.

Joanie x

The address on the birth cert is 6 Grove Street- this is who was there is 1911-: (can't see any obvious connection- Harriet nee Walton)

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
6 Grove St Birkdale, Southport, Lancashire, England

Alexander Spencer Head Married Male Labourer Bricksetters 29 1882 India Madnas
Harriet Spencer Wife Married Female House Worker 25 1886 Cheshire Altrincham
George Alexander Spencer Son - Male - 1 1910 Lancs Southport
George Bishop Smith Boarder Widower Male Teacher Of Music 49 1862 Lancs Southport
----------------------------------------------

Can't see anything obvious in the papers either- only thing was a report in July 1910 of a Joseph Cooper (native of Italy) described as an organ grinder and icecream vendor who was sentenced at Liverpool to 5 months imprisonment for stabbing someone in Southport.

Looking at the the census I think he was actually Joseph Ambrose (married man born 1880).
-----------------------------------------

Do you have Louisa's birth certificate too?

Just a though Joanie,

On Frank's birth cert - is it an actual photocopy of the cert or is it a re-written one you have received - i.e. is Joseph's signature his 'actual' signature or is it transcribed.

If it is the actual signature it could perhaps be compared with the signatures of all the Joseph Coopers on the 1911 register and maybe a match could be found??

Dea x

Nothing as yet seemed to have hit a brick wall...x :-S

Getting the birth cert has not really made it easier, I wonder if the electoral rolls for the Southport address would help, will have to find out were these are held and go have a look. Have looked at Franks sister Louise and her hubby W.E Steele and maybe could find someone looking at her line, i have sent 17 requests on gene's to see if i may find some info....Joseph being killed in war is a possibility as long as he died after 1939 list taken...will keep looking, thank you Folks for your kind help.x ;-)

ps will be checking a couple of times a day to see if anyone has found a gem, will be digging round and put any leads i find too...x :-D

1939 index has Mary Cooper as married not Wd

wonder if the Louisa Cooper birth cert would be of use for the address
as that's fairly close to 1911 census

Mavis

could joseph cooper have been in the army and killed in the war

yes that's it Joseph reg the birth -- he was alive and kicking then.

wonder if he worked on the railway 1911 census

Mavis

Will it tell me that on the cert who registered Franks Birth ? just looking at it says signature of informant Joseph Cooper, remember they had a daughter before Frank.x

ps...but you maybe right and they never married, maybe follow Louisa'a line and see if anyone alive who knows the story, just a thought. x

there is a chance he may have been married even Mary may have been married
they could well just have lived together -- Mary was a young woman and would more than likely had more children --- if Joseph was a married man he may well have gone back to his wife after the birth of the 2 children or may have disappeared

Mary is stated with still married in 1939 but no death of a Joseph Cooper in Ormskirk area after that date till Frank married and said he was deceased

also as a thought perhaps Mary invented a husband -- not unknown

who actually reg. the birth Mary or Joseph


Mavis