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Bother.
I forgot that is why I discounted it yesterday but it was the only Margaret M Atkinson I could find.

Trouble is, it wouldn't just be the year that was out, compared with the 1939 register entry which gives 5 Sept 1901, if that's her birth Ann has posted above - the month would be wrong as well.

If Joan's mother was Margaret May this is probably her birth reg. Remembered years of birth are often a little out

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1900
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name
ATKINSON Margaret May St John Preston WEIR

No worries Margaret, sounds like things are coming together, amazing how memories can be jogged when names, places etc. are mentioned!.

Report back to us, if you need any more help...

Chris :)

(details from 1924 Birth Cert. will help though)

The India connection is correct, there were two children born over there. Joan is abit scant on what she can remember and after speaking to her just now on the phone, a few pieces have come to light. Her father was Herbert John Frederick Ratcliffe he was the 1st born son, he had a brother John (Jack) 5 years younger and a sister Edna again 5 years younger than John. John and Edna were the two born in India. Herbert was definitely born in Co. Birr, Ireland.

Joans mum was Margaret May though she preferred to be call Mae with an E Atkinson. The marriage did take place at Christ Church Methodist, Abbey Rd but the family later became Catholics (This is probably where the pictures of the priests come in). I'm going to see Joan on Monday next week, taking with me the info I've got, we're going to sit and try and sort through it because I think there are different families mentioned. If I come across anything else from the bits she's just told me I'll let you know, but there are no dates, just memory recollections

Margaret -
You'd have to scan them onto your computer first, then follow the instructions on GR re Keepsafe:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/help/faqs?key=386
What is the Keepsafe?


Where do you keep your photos at home? In a handbag? Or a box? The Keepsafe is a place where you can safely store photos and any other items you have scanned such as documents or letters.

To add photos or copies of scanned documents, such as letters. All you have to do is upload them from your computer at home, and store them in your Keepsafe. And when you’re viewing records on the site, you can store a copy in here too.

To add something to your keepsafe you’ll see a box in the top left hand corner that says ‘Upload to Keepsafe’. Click on this and a pop up will appear that says ‘Select a file’. Click the ‘Choose File’ button and a pop up will appear that allows you to search your own computer. Find the photo you want to upload and double click or click the ‘Open’ button. Then click Next and follow the instructions. You must give your item a title, as this is used in our search engine. So, when you search our photos and media we will be searching the titles of the images for the word(s) you are looking for. Try and include a name, a place or event in the title if you can.

You'll see the option to add both transcription and original record images to your Keepsafe too. When you see a record you’d like to save you’ll see the Keepsafe options on the right hand side of the page. You can attach the record to relatives in your tree. If you’re not sure it is the right record, you can just keep a copy of it and refer back to it at a later date. When you add it to your Keepsafe it will be added to the saved records folder, but you can move it to one of your other folders if you want to.

Thankyou all again, I'll see ig I can 'borrow' a couple of photos from Joan, can they be scanned in on here though?

(so presume below from Find My Past must be Edna, Daughter Informant on Death Cert., perhaps had a M in there somehere!)

Chris :)

First name(s) EDNA T
Last name RATCLIFFE
Year range 1901
Place DEVONPORT
Country ENGLAND
Regiment 40th Foot
Record source GRO Regimental Birth Indices (1761 to 1924)
Volume 1126
Page 109
Record set British nationals armed forces births 1761-2005


Births Mar 1902 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ratcliffe Edna Theresa Devonport 5b 270


(did wonder if below related somewhere to Annie Kedward, mentioned in Probate of John 1940)

Marriages Mar 1873 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------
KEDWARD Robert Leigh 8c 273
RATCLIFFE Esther Leigh 8c 273

https://billiongraves.com/grave/Esther-Ratcliffe-Kedward/6593707#

(Leigh Cemetery)

(probably getting too 'technical'!, as said earlier, details needed from Certs.)

Family listed from the Army record of John Ratcliffe that Chris put up earlier:

ritish Army Service Records 1760-1915
First name(s) John
Last name Ratcliffe
Service number 2732
Rank SERGEANT
Regiment South Lancashire Regiment (Prince of Wales's Volunteers) - 40th & 82nd Foot
Attestation age years 38
Attestation age months 6
Discharge corps South Lancashire Regiment
Discharge service number 2732
Document type Discharge
Series WO 97 - Chelsea Pensioners British Army service records 1760-1913

Mother: Esther- Murray ? Street, Leigh

Grandfather: John - 72 Kirkhall Lane, Crossing, West Leigh

Wife: Lilly Toole (married 18th Feb 1895 Parish Church Birr

Child: Herbert John Frederick Ratcliffe- 27th Dec 1898 Birr (Ireland)

Child: Harold James Edwin Ratcliffe- 16th May 1900 Devonport (crossed through- died)

Child: Edna Theresa Ratcliffe- 5th Jan 1902 Devonport

Child: John Ratcliffe- 22nd August 1904 Pachu?

Child: Godfrey Charles Ratcliffe- 29th Sept 1906 Jubbulpore

Child: Gilbert Leslie Ratcliffe- 25th April 1908 Ranikhet

Child: Bernard Ratcliffe- 23rd May 1909 Lahore

Re whether or not Margaret Atkinson was born 1901 or 1898 -

FreeBMD doesn't show any births of a Margaret M Atkinson 1896 - 1902, apart from one in Preston in 2nd qr 1900. There are lots of Margaret Atkinsons with a different middle initial, or none.

As Chris says, we need the info on Margaret & Herbert's marriage cert (age and father's name) to be able to find her correctly in 1911 census.

Hopefully Joan has a copy of that, or will be willing to buy one.

(below, if anybody has more time to go through, is the one who Married Lily Toole. Click on 12 pages, also has his Death Cert. details. Also looks like 2 Sons born India, Godfrey Charles 1906, Gilbert Leslie 1908 looks like Death for Gilbert 1909 India)


Deaths Sep 1940 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------
Ratcliffe John F 69 Barton 8c 1082 (middle name Frederick)


https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=ratcliffe&yearOfDeath=1940&page=2#calendar

(Probate details above, matches below)


1939 Register (Find My Past)

27 Laburnum Avenue , Swinton and Pendlebury M.B., Lancashire,
Annie Kedward 27 Sep 1886 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Single
Charles Raldiffe 13 Jul 1871 Male Retired Civil Servant Widowed (Not Charles but John on image)


12 September 1940 - Manchester Evening News - Manchester, Greater

ACKNOWLEDGMENTS
The Family of the late Captain JOHN FREDERICK RATCLIFFE desire to Thank the clergy, all relatives, friends, and neighbours for their kind sympathy and floral tributes in their sad bereavement. R.I.P. 27. Laburnam Avenue Swinton.



British Army Service Records 1760-1915 Transcription (Find My Past)

First name(s) John
Last name Ratcliffe
Service number 2732
Rank SERGEANT
Regiment South Lancashire Regiment (Prince of Wales's Volunteers) - 40th & 82nd Foot
Attestation age years 38
Attestation age months 6
Discharge corps South Lancashire Regiment
Discharge service number 2732
Document type Discharge
Series WO 97 - Chelsea Pensioners British Army service records 1760-1913
Archive The National Archives
Archive reference WO 97
Box 5743
Box record number 38
Record set British Army Service Records
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Subcategory Regimental & service records


Edits (Revd. Father Leo was Officiating Minister, for 1895 Marriage)


(wonders if below is Daughter E. M. Boardman, Informant on Death Cert., address as 1939 below)

Marriages Sep 1930 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------------------
Boardman Thomas Ratcliffe Barton I. 8c 1644
Ratcliffe Edna M Boardman Barton I. 8c 1644


Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1930

BOARDMAN Thomas RATCLIFFE Edna M Barton-on-Irwell Register Office or Registrar Attended Salford BAR/79/143


1939 Register (Find My Past)

No 2 Loretto Lostock Park Drive, Lostock , Bolton C.B., Lancashire
Edna M Boardman 21 Dec 1901 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
Thomas Boardman 11 Aug 1896 Male Statistory Selling Scheme Depot Manage & Coal Salesman

Chris :)

(so with Birth of 5th Sept. 1901, not the 1898 one with Mother Maiden Name Berry)

We need some definite details from 1923 and 1924 Certificates...

Chris :)

With the irish connection, maybe the photo found , is of the irish side.
100 years ago, most photos would have been , beyond the reach of your average family, but not the church.
pity we can't see the photo.
Have to say with the scant info supplied, the answers are very revealing , hope it all helps Margaret

This is the civil registration:

Name: Herbert John Ratcliffe
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1899
Registration district: Parsonstown
Birth Country: Ireland
Volume: 3 Page: 418
FHL Film Number: 101067

and parent's marriage:

First name(s) John
Last name Ratcliffe
Registration year 1895
Registered Quarter/Year Jan - Mar 1895
Registration district Parsonstown
Volume 3 Page 458
MarriageFinder™ John Ratcliffe married one of these people
*Lilly Toole* , Anne Brien, Kate Coolahan, Hannah Baskerville
Country Ireland
Record set Irish Marriages 1845-1958

As Herbert was born Ireland (GRO Regimental Births) perhaps this is Herbert 1901:

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
6, George Street, Devonport, Stoke-Damerel, Devon, England

John Ratcliffe Head Married Male 29 1872 Staff Sergt Army Gymnastic Staff Leigh, Lanc,
Lilly Ratcliffe Wife Married Female 25 1876 - Ireland
Herbert Ratcliffe Son - Male 2 1899 - Ireland

Joan's parents 1939 (Original says RATCLIFFE):

Rfcliffe Household (2 People) 13 Lowther Avenue , Morecambe and Heysham M.B., Lancashire, England

Herbert F Rfcliffe 27 Dec 1898 Male Established Clerical Officer Ministry Of Labour Married
Margaret M Rfcliffe 05 Sep 1901 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
One closed record (likely to be Joan)

Thankyou for your replies, I'm going through them and trying to put them into some sort of 'tree' I'll show Joan next week when I go to visit her and get back to you. The photo's are I would think going up for 100 years old or even older according to dress they are all wearing

The 1901 for the family that Argyll Gran posted the 1911 for

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
2, Baldwin Street, Barrow in Furness, Lancashire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
George Atkinson Head Married Male 34 1867 Railway Platelayer Cumberland, England
Mary Atkinson Wife Married Female 35 1866 - Barrow in Furness, Lancashire, England
George Atkinson Son Single Male 13 1888 - Barrow in Furness, Lancashire, England
Eleanor A Atkinson Daughter Single Female 12 1889 - Barrow in Furness, Lancashire, England
Annie Atkinson Daughter Single Female 7 1894 - Barrow in Furness, Lancashire, England
Robert W Atkinson Son Single Male 9 1892 - Barrow in Furness, Lancashire, England
Bertha Atkinson Daughter Single Female 4 1897 - Barrow in Furness, Lancashire, England
Margaret Atkinson Daughter Single Female 2 1899 - Barrow in Furness, Lancashire, England

EDIT - no names missing, just the way it's copied over

PM from Margaret - please answer on the thread Margaret so all helpers can see replies


She was born Barrow in furness, Dad Herbert and they lived down south later on, Shoreham on Sea at one time. Not sure about mothers family ie sisters brothers

Name George Atkinson
Event Type Census
Event Date 31 Mar 1901
Event Place Preston, Lancashire, England
County Lancashire
Civil Parish Preston
Ecclesiastical Parish St Mary
Sub-District Trinity
Registration District Preston
Residence Note Fisher Street
Gender Male
Age 13
Occupation COTTON SPINNER
Relationship to Head of Household Son
Birth Year (Estimated) 1888
Birthplace Preston, Lancashire
Schedule Type 118
Page Number 19


George Atkinson Head M 39 Preston, Lancashire
Mary A Atkinson Wife F 35 Preston, Lancashire
Samuel Atkinson Son M 15 Preston, Lancashire
George Atkinson Son M 13 Preston, Lancashire
Ada Atkinson Daughter F 9 Preston, Lancashire
Isabella Atkinson Daughter F 5 Preston, Lancashire
William T Atkinson Son M 3 Preston, Lancashire
Albert Atkinson Son M 1 Preston, Lancashire
John Atkinson Lodger M 58 Preston, Lancashire