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JoonieCloonie the connection between both threads is that the people looking for originate from the Lawrence line, but children were from two different fathers.

and then of course there is this one

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/living_relatives/thread/1360269

and I'm not going to try to figure out what the connection is ...

For info of anyone following this thread -

Brummie46's other thread re the Winnipeg family:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/living_relatives/thread/1360439

I wonder if this is relevant in any way?

This James was born in the same place as Emily J's father Charles.

He's clearly not a brother of Emily J - but maybe some sort of cousin, described as uncle on Lily May's travel document ??

James William Lawrence
in the 1911 England Census
Name: James William Lawrence
Age in 1911: 44
Estimated birth year: abt 1867
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Marden, Herefordshire, England
Civil Parish: Winslow
County/Island: Herefordshire
Country: England
Street address: The Gardens, Rowden Abbey, Bromyard
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Gardener
Registration district: Bromyard
Registration District Number: 339
Sub-registration district: Bromyard
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Household schedule number: 15
Piece: 15791
Household Members:
Name Age
James William Lawrence 44
Lizzie Lawrence 42
Lilly Lawrence 12
Harry Lawrence 10


James William Lawrance
in the 1901 England Census
Name: James William Lawrance
Age: 34
Estimated birth year: abt 1867
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Spouse: Lizzie Lawrance
Birth Place: Marden, Herefordshire, England
Civil Parish: Winslow
Ecclesiastical parish: Bromyard St Peter
Town: Winslow
County/Island: Herefordshire
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation:
Registration district: Bromyard
Sub-registration district: Bromyard
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2489
Folio: 63
Page Number: 3
Household schedule number: 13
Household Members:
Name Age
James William Lawrance 34
Lizzie Lawrance 32
Lily Lawrance 2
Harry Lawrance 2/12


James William Laurence
in the 1891 Wales Census
Name: James William Laurence
Age: 24
Estimated birth year: abt 1867
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Lizzie Laurence
Gender: Male
Where born: Marden, Herefordshire, England
Civil Parish: Roath
Ecclesiastical parish: Roath
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Street address: View image
Condition as to marriage: View image
Education: View image
Employment status: View image
Occupation: View image
Registration district: Cardiff
Sub registration district: Cardiff
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 4387
Folio: 79
Page Number: 45
Household Members:
Name Age
James William Laurence 24 - gardener
Lizzie Laurence 22


Marriages Jun 1890 (>99%)
Lawrence James William Hereford 6a 970
MUNN Lizzie Hereford 6a 970

Trying to track down James - he's not with the family in 1861, 1871 or 1881:


I wonder if this is Emily J's mother in 1891?

Jane Laurence
in the 1891 Wales Census
Name: Jane Laurence
Age: 52
Estimated birth year: abt 1839
Relation: Housekeeper
Gender: Female
Where born: Hereford
Civil Parish: Merthyr Tydfil
Ecclesiastical parish: Dowlais
Town: Dowlais
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Street address: View image
Condition as to marriage: View image
Education: View image
Employment status: View image
Occupation: View image
Registration district: Merthyr Tydfil
Sub registration district: Upper Merthyr Tydfil
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 4438
Folio: 127
Page Number: 24
Household Members:
Name Age
James Lermer 50
Jane Laurence 52 - widow, living on own means


But I can't see Charles's death, unless this is it, with age a couple of years out:

Deaths Jun 1890 (>99%)
Lawrence Charles 67 Aston 6d 199

There are actually several trees on Ancestry, showing this family - but full of mistakes.

One of them says that Emily J died 27 October 1938, Winnipeg, but doesn't offer any record as proof.

But another says she died 8th November 1925, Winnipeg - also with no proof.

Different trees list different siblings for Emily J.
One tree has mixed her family up with another family of Lawrences, in Gloucestershire, so gives some correct siblings and some wrong ones.

One says James was a half-sibling - but doesn't give details of his parents.
Take it with a pinch of salt!

Some mention Emily J's first marriage - some don't.

ArgylleGran sorry just noticed re uncle of Ivy. James Lawrence I was reading it as James.Lawrence Young 1901 So it seems that Emily.Jane also had a sibling named James alongside many others but didn't have that one on my list. Now ive sussed it.
thanks again.

thanks a MILLION ArgylleGran will try and further trace on the children/grandchildren of Ivy. Still confused about James.L.YOung 1901 stating Uncle for he was the son of Emily.J. and Samuel Young or am I missing something!!
To enable to find what happened to this family (youngs) I might post another thread for anyone in Canada to see if any living relatives/descendants from the info you have provided. I think somewhere from some correspondence we have (years old) the name Ryecroft is mention and we thought it was a place but it seems its a surname so might be a connection there.
thanks once again

There's tree on Ancestry which has a photo of Ivy.

Web: Manitoba, Marriage Index, 1879-1931
Name Ivy Elsie Young
Gender Female
Marriage Date 18 May 1929
Marriage Place Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Household Members
Name Age
Henry Lee
Ivy Elsie Young


Apparently she and Henry had a son born the year before the marriage, and two daughters in the 1930's . ROSE MARIE LEE(1931–1991) and Sylvia Margaret (lee) Gerk(1933–2012)

The tree also says this is her death - in which case she must have remarried at some point. Henry didn't die until 1982, according to the tree, so they must have divorced:

Ivy Elsie Harrison
in the British Columbia, Canada, Death Index, 1872-1990
Name: Ivy Elsie Harrison
Gender: Female
Birth Year: abt 1912
Death Age: 64
Death Date: 3 Apr 1976
Death Location: Kelowna
Registration Number: 1976-09-009395
BCA Number: B13352
GSU Number: 2050565


This is stated to be Ivy's brother Charles's death:

Michigan, Death Index, 1971-1996
View Record
Name Charles H Young
Birth Date 3 Dec 1907
Death Date 10 Sep 1981
Gender Male
Residence Marengo, Calhoun, Michigan
Place of Death Marshall, Calhoun, Michigan

No death details are given for Emily J.

The tree also makes no mention of Emily J's first marriage, nor of young Emily or Florence.

I think you've misunderstood about James Lawrence. He is stated as Lily's uncle, not Emily J's - therefore he's Emily J's brother.

Re Emily / Ellen - without knowing her first married name, it's pretty well impossible to find her second one. Emily Jones is a very common name.
There are lots of marriages between Emilys and Wilfreds - and as you say, it may well not have been his official name.


This is Ivy's birth:

Births Jun 1912 (>99%)
Young Ivy E Lawrence King's N. 6c 877

ArgylleGran, well you have possibly answered many a question to what we have been asking for many years. Emily.J.Young was my husbands gr grandmother so it seems that she went to Canada with her children and husband and left her other daughters Florence and Emily/ellen JOnes alongside Nora (young) but you state another child?? Ivy age 9 and that James Lawrence was her uncle but I think he would be her older brother. We have amongst old photos some photos sent from Canada with writing on the back but cant make it all out due to glue etc., but all we can make out is that it says from your loving sister and son was a few months old. So I truly think there is some connection there.
Regarding younger Emily/Ellen I have now idea when her second marriage was all I know that Wilf came from Guernsey and not to sure if that was his correct name.

You say that Emily / Ellen 's second husband was Wilf.

What was her first husband's name, please?

EDIT: Oh, I see you don't know that, having re-read your post.
EDIT again: At least I think that's what you meant??

"Still struggling along with Emily JOnes (1891 (or ellen) to find out to whom she wed I know she wed for a second time to someone name Wilf "


Do you know roughly when she married Wilf?

Perhaps Emily (1891) in 1911??
Boarding with the Tandy family.


Emily Jones
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Emily Jones
Age in 1911: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1891
Relation to Head: Boarder
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Civil Parish: Birmingham
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England
Street address: 43 Blews Street Birmingham
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Driller Cycle Accessories
Registration district: Birmingham
Registration District Number: 384
Sub-registration district: St George
ED, institution, or vessel: 30
Piece: 18090

Emily J Young
in the UK, Outward Passenger Lists, 1890-1960
Name: Emily J Young
Gender: Female
Age: 51
Birth Date: abt 1870
Departure Date: 1 Sep 1921
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Destination Port: Quebec, Canada
Ship Name: Empress of Britain
Shipping line: Canadian Pacific Railway
Official Number: 120940
Master: Captain Griffiths


Address: 68 Gilbert road, Smethwick
Travelling with Wm John, 13; L. May, 11; and Ivy E, 9.

Ancestry suggests this is Lily May's marriage:

Lillie May Young
in the Web: Manitoba, Marriage Index, 1879-1931
Name: Lillie May Young
Gender: Female
Spouse: David Melville
Marriage Date: 31 Dec 1931
Marriage Place: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada


Your Lily went to Quebec with her family:
Lily May Young
in the Canada, Ocean Arrivals (Form 30A), 1919-1924
Name: Lily May Young
Gender: Female
Estimated birth year: abt 1909
Birth Place: Smethwick, England
Age: 12
Date of Arrival: Sep 1921
Port of Arrival: Quebec
Ship Name: Empress of France (Empress of Britain on image)

She was travelling with her mother, and going to join her father, Samuel F Young, at 373 Sydney Avenue, East Kildonan, Winnipeg.

Her nearest relative left in the UK was her uncle James Lawrence, at 156 Burlington Road, Small Heath, Birmingham

Emily must have been using Samuel's surname before marriage.

Emily and Samuel married in the 3rd quarter of 1901:

Marriages Sep 1901 (>99%)
JONES Emily Jane Birmingham 6d 323
Young Samuel Francis Birmingham 6d 323


but here she is in 1901 census, which was 31st March:

Emily Young
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Emily Young
Age: 31
Estimated birth year: abt 1870
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Spouse: Samuel Young
Birth Place: Hereford, Herefordshire, England
Civil Parish: Smethwick
Ecclesiastical parish: Old Church
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England
Registration district: Kings Norton
Sub-registration district: Harborne
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2819
Folio: 75
Page Number: 24
Household schedule number: 144
Household Members:
Name Age
Samuel Young 31
Emily Young 31
Florence Jones 12
Emily Jones 10
Nora Young 2
James Young 4/12


and in 1911, which you asked for:

Emily Young
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Emily Young
Age in 1911: 40
Estimated birth year: abt 1871
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Hereford, Herefordshire
Civil Parish: Smethwick
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England
Street address: 68 Gilbert Rd, Smethwick
Marital Status: Married
Years Married: 18
Estimated Marriage Year: 1893
Occupation: Housekeeper
Registration district: Kings Norton
Registration District Number: 383
Sub-registration district: Smethwick
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Household schedule number: 169
Piece: 17951
Household Members:
Name Age
Samuel Young 40
Emily Young 40
Nora Young 12
James Young 10
Charles Young 4
William Young 3
Lily May Young 1

would like look up please for 1911 census to see where William and Lily were living and still to find Emily (ellen/Helen JOnes 1891) thank you

Andy and ArgyllGran have managed to find more information on Emily.J.Lawrence who wed Samuel.F Young. Hence children NOra 1899 James 1901 but then find Charles 1907 William 1908 Lily 1910. Got marriage of NOra and James but now to find marriage for Charles William and Lily. It seems that Samuel alongside son Charles sailed to Quebec in 1921 so what happened to Emily.J.(snr) that's another investigation. Still struggling along with Emily JOnes (1891 (or ellen) to find out to whom she wed I know she wed for a second time to someone name Wilf but that's another search for me. I am also wondering if Lily 1910 could be the person living with the Palletts (Nora) in Birmingham in 1950s.
THank you so much for your help but as you can guess more work to investiage.

thanks again for all the information

Can't see daughter Amelia in 1871, but this will be her marriage:

Marriages Sep 1873 (>99%)
DALE William Hereford 6a 951
LAWRENCE Amelia Hereford 6a 951



Amelia Dale
in the 1881 England Census
Name: Amelia Dale
Age: 26
Estimated birth year: abt 1855
Relationship to Head: Wife
Spouse: William Dale
Gender: Female
Where born: Marden, Hereford, England
Civil Parish: Aston
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England
Street address: 62 Long Acre
Marital Status: Married
Registration district: Aston
Sub registration district: Duddeston
ED, institution, or vessel: 47
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3034
Folio: 105
Page Number: 24
Household Members:
Name Age
William Dale 30
Amelia Dale 26
Alice Dale 7
William Dale 3