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Interesting????

First name(s) RUPERT
Last name LYLE
Marriage quarter 2
Marriage year 1896
Registration month -

MarriageFinder™ RUPERT LYLE married one of these people

EMILY SUMMERS, EDITH MAUD HITCHCOCK

District COLCHESTER
District number -
County Essex
Country England
Volume 4A
Page 879
Record set England & Wales marriages 1837-2008
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Marriages & divorces
Collections from Great Britain

Other male on this record should be Arthur Bloice.
He can be found in 1901 with wife Emily and in 1924 coming back from Canada with his wife Emily.

Therefore, Rupert looks to have married Edith Maud Hitchcock


Edith Maud Hitchcock ?? ( That's a bit of a coincidence)

Possible for Edith Maud Hitchcock:

Edith M Hitchcock
in the 1891 England Census
Name: Edith M Hitchcock
Age: 16
Estimated birth year: abt 1875
Relation: Sister
Gender: Female
Where born: Colchester, Essex, England
Civil Parish: St Botolph
Ecclesiastical parish: St Botolph
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Registration district: Colchester
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1406
Folio: 29
Page Number: 6
Household Members:
Name Age
Louisa Hitchcock 28 - tailoress
Edith M Hitchcock 16 - apprentice tailoress
Alice H Dawson 35 - lodger



Or possibly this one: [EDIT: No not this one - see next post]

Edith Hitchcock
in the 1891 England Census
Name: Edith Hitchcock
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1869
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Colchester, Essex, England
Civil Parish: All Saints
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Registration district: Colchester
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1411
Folio: 30
Page Number: 7
Household Members:
Name Age
Edith Hitchcock 22 - dressmaker
Mary Cole 24 - dressmaker's assistant

EDIt; No, this is the second one above - and not the one who married Rupert.]


And just to confuse things further -
another Colchester wedding for an Edith Maude Hitchcock!


Edith Maude Hitchcock
in the England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index, 1837-1915
Name: Edith Maude Hitchcock
Registration Year: 1893
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district: Colchester
Inferred County: Essex
Volume: 4a
Page: 908
Records on Page:
Name
Charles Henry Comer
Edith Maude Hitchcock


and the death of that one - so not the one who married Rupert Lyle:

Edith Maud Comer
in the England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915
Record Image View
Name: Edith Maud Comer
Estimated birth year: abt 1869
Registration Year: 1898
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at Death: 29
Registration district: Colchester
Inferred County: Essex
Volume: 4a
Page: 416

A tree on Ancestry has this for Rupert's death:

Death
Name: Rupert Lyle
Birth Date: abt 1860
Date of Registration: Dec 1938
Age at Death: 78
Registration district: Pancras
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1b Page: 112

They list his father as Rupert William Lyle

That's the death suggested by Pam on page 1, and the same peson in the workhouse, posted by me on page 1.

Seems a bit old to be the husband of either Edith or Maud - but not impossible.

He (or at least a Rupert Lyle) is on the St Pancras ER in 1918, then 1936- 1938, but not with a wife. His address is Rawton House, which I take to be Rowton House, a hostel for down-and-outs:
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/RowtonCamden/

In the workhouse admission register, he's listed as a widower, and a clerk, with no known NOK.

I can't see the death of either an Edith or a Maud Lyle in a suitable year.
If the Maud Lyle who married Mr Carlton is the right Maud, she and Rupert must have divorced.
The tree on Ancestry, which AustinQ mentions, lists that as Maud's second marriage.

I can't see Edith Maude Hitchcock, who married in 1896 , anywhere after the marriage.

PM sent to Christine to tell her there are replies, and that we could do with more info!

The Ancestry tree says that Rupert's son Charles (birth posted by Catherine on page 1) was, at some point, adopted by the Battrick family - that's the link to Christine.

Burial for 1938 Rupert on below.

https://www.deceasedonline.com/


(although as posted earlier, Christine has him as born 1893, and notes, Rupert A Lyle 1919)

Chris :)

the 1911 for the Rupert Lyle in the other various records that have been posted, I think possibly

Name: R Lyle
Age in 1911: 43
Estimated birth year: abt 1868
Relation to Head: Patient
Gender: Female >>> the entire list of patients is 'male' and mistranscribed by Ancestry
Civil Parish: Epsom
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Street address: London County Council, Horton Asylum, Epsom
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Clerk
Registration district: Epsom

no place of birth entered, recorded as 'lunatic'

it does not seem possible that this is the Rupert Lyle in question here


the Irish Rupert posted earlier

Name: Rupert Cecil Lyle
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1898
Registration district: Belfast

does not seem to be in the 1901 or 1911 Irish census



The Rupert Lyle who was a passenger from South Africa is likely the one who had two children baptised there with wife Hannah in 1905 and 1906

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVS4-BXW7

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVS4-B2QS

His and Hannah's deaths are recorded in the SA National Archives, his in 1949 showing her as surviving spouse, and hers in 1954

on the outbound passage in 1890 he was 20, accompanied by a Chas Lyle, 16, both gentlemen

he could be Charles Gorden Lyle, married to Florence, who had children baptised in SA (at familysearch) and died there in 1936 (SA National Archives)


Catherine the record you posted at the end of page 1

First name(s) R
Last name LYLE
Title MR
Gender Male
Age 32
Birth year 1871
Marital status M
Occupation PAINTER
Departure year 1903

is actually an outbound record Southampton to Durban, not a return to England

... and actually, there is no firm reason to believe that Mr R Lyle is a Rupert ... ?


In any event, it seems the SA Rupert Lyle is not the man ... unless ... he was in England in the military in connection with WWI, met Maud Hancock, married bigamously and remained

but that would be countered by the death recorded in the SA National Archives ... except that the record is of an estate, and it is possible that the SA wife was the surviving spouse and there was property in SA ...

Or perhaps he married Ms Hancock purely for propriety in view of the impending birth, and the marriage did not survive and he departed England?

the circumstances of the adoption would be interesting in that regard maybe


a lot more info is needed from Christine

(future wife of Son Rupert A. Married 1940)

Chris :)

1939 Register (Find My Past)

160 Abbey Road , Barking M.B., Essex,
Florence M Lyle (Pyner) 18 Sep 1920 Female Rubber Factory Hand Single
Alfred Pyner 24 Jul 1889 Male Gardener Labourer Heavy Worker Married

the SA Rupert Lyle is probably ruled out here

https://www.myheritage.com/names/rupert_lyle

unless ... it was the same man and the SA family did not know of his English wife and children

... which seems unlikely since the births were 1919 and 1923

... but the 1923 birth could have been to a different father and registered in the mother's husband's name ...


stranger things have certainly happened ... and the second child was subsequently adopted?


the surname associated with the SA Rupert Lyle, 1871-1949, was Vacy-Lyle

a sister also travelled to SA

Christine- do you have the marriage certificate?

What was Rupert's occupation and address?

Who were the witnesses?

Do you have the certificate for Maud's second marriage? Is she listed as widowed/ Divorced?

It looks like someone else looking for him a while back-:

http://www.genesreunited.com.au/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1180694

Re the possibility that he travelled or left the country -

he's only on the Camden / St Pancras ER in 1918 (ie - until he married Maud in 1919, if that 's the right Rupert), and then not again until 1936.

So either he left the country after they married, or moved to some other part of UK, not returning to London until some years after they had divorced (assuming the 1938 death is him).

Or - fairly wild theory - if the R Lyle in Horton Asylum in 1911 is him, he might have been readmitted in the 1920's.
The second son was born 1923. The workhouse admission date for Rupert Lyle was 1922-24. Maybe he was then readmitted to hospital for some years, and was therefore not allowed to vote.

Flaw in argument - doesn't explain why he's not on ER 1919 - 23, unless he wasn't living in London - but the children were born Lambeth.

And why is there no sign of either Edith Maud Hitchcock or Maud E Hancock after their respective marriages?

If Rupert and Maud were living in Lambeth area during at least 1919-23, why aren't they on the ER?

Well, according to army records, the one who married Edith Maud Hitchcock was born in Taunton, Somerset around 1867.

They married in 1896 in Colchester.

He was C of E and a Clerk.

He joined the army in Nov., 1891 at the age of 24 and served until 1908.

He joined the Liverpool Regiment first (signed up in Warrington) and then later transferred to the Royal Irish Fusiliers.

His two sons Rupert Cecil (3/7/98) and Archibald Cecil (14/10/99) were born in Holywood Co.Down, Ireland (Rupert Cecil died very young - probably in infancy).

He had a younger sister called Louisa who became Louisa de Capona and lived in Los Angeles, California.

I can't find anything to substantiate all this apart from his Army Records.

He never served abroad.

Dea x

EDIT !! - VERY sorry - Rupert Cecil was born 7/3/98 NOT 3/7/98 !! - Slip of the typing digit here I am afraid !! :-0

Dea Xxx

Aha, so that's why the Belfast Rupert isn't on the 1901 or 1911 Irish census!

[EDIT: No, wrong Rupert Cecil. The Belfast one (apart from being born in the wrong place) was born Apr-June qr of 1898.]



Nothing there to say that Rupert senior wasn't the same Rupert who later married Maud E., and then was in the Workhouse.

Except for about 7 years difference in YOB!

Rupert Cecil Lyle is such an unusual (if not unique) name that I would tend to think the one born in Belfast and the one reported on the army record as being born a few weeks later in Co Down were one and the same. Since Rupert Cecil Lyle died in infancy, it might not be surprising that his father did not recall his DOB accurately, or perhaps entered his burial info instead.

EDIT - the image of the military records actually gives 7.3.98 as the date of birth for Rupert Cecil, so that is correct per the registration quarter
EDIT - oops, I missed your edit!


for info just because the name is coincidental: a George Cecil Lyle married in Belfast in 1913.

I really can't see someone described as 'lunatic' in 1911 (if that is the Rupert Lyle later in the workhouse) being out and about and marrying and having children a few years later. ... rats, I had been thinking the Rupert who married Hitchcock was born c1869 from his death record ... it was c1859, not 1869, so that R Lyle is probably not our person after all

we've noticed that there is no birth record for the Rupert Lyle who married Hitchcock ...

the only other Rupert Lyle in records at familysearch had a child in 1892 in Minnesota who apparently died at birth


We really do need to know what info is on certificates

Maud's and Rupert's marriage certificate - his age and occupation and address

and the son's birth certificate, for Rupert's ocupation and the address, also.


... okay, the previous thread Chris linked to (unfortunately I can't find the other thread referred to in that thread) says the father's name on the Lyle Hancock marriage certificate was 'Rupert William'.

Rupert's *age at marriage* remains an important question, along with all the other info on the certificate.


It would be very nice if Christine would pay some attention to this thread and the questions in it.

I don't know whether anyone has PMed to ask her to return ... I will now.

no record of birth of Rupert who married Hitchcock ... so we look at the name shift possibility?

Births Sep 1860
BEADEL Rupert William Chelmsford 4a 139

no further record of that person

location fits the marriage to Hitchcock

1861 census, son of Elizabeth A and William J Beadel, an estate agent
1881, a student
alumnus of Oxford
... 1885 married in NSW Australia

missing person report, last seen in January 1896 at Botany Pier, gives description of him

Name: Rupert William Beadel
Birth Year: abt 1861
Age: 36
Event Place: Alexandria, New South Wales, Australia
Event Type: Missing Person
Publication Date: 10 Feb 1897
Page #: 52

the Rupert Lyle marriage to Hitchcock in Essex was the previous year so that doesn't work

a tree at Ancestry shows him getting 2 months in 1898 for threatening violence, and another shows him dying in 1913, confirmed in NSW records

he was certainly interesting but it isn't him :-)




the Rupert Lyle whose military record shows he was 24 when he enrolled, i.e. born c1867, also does not exist in birth records, of course

the closest to him is a Rupert C Clarke aged 4 in the 1871 census, with widowed mother Elizabeth, a bookseller, in Taunton where the military Rupert reported he was born ... in 1861 the father is Frederick

in 1891 he is in Berkshire, a *clerk* in holy orders (clergy)

Rupert C Clarke then disappears from records.

Rupert Lyle enrolled in the military in December 1891 in Warrington
(he deserted in 1907 and was discharged)

Of course there is no birth record of a Rupert Clark(e) born in Taunton, or anywhere at the right time ... possibly

Births Jun 1867
Clarke Charlie Taunton 5c 400

but I am thinking that this may be the Rupert Lyle who enrolled in the military

whose DOB does not match the Rupert Lyle who died in 1938 ... but could match the R Lyle who was a patient in the 1911 census ...

Deaths Jun 1912 ??
CLARKE Rupert C 45 (1867) Wycombe 3a 833

Marriages Jun 1906 ?
Britton Kathleen Isobel S Amersham 3a 1489
CLARKE Rupert Charles Amersham 3a 1489

Name: Robert Charles Clarke - it says *Rupert*
Age in 1911: 44
Estimated birth year: abt 1867
Relation to Head: Head
Birth Place: Taunton, Somerset, England
Civil Parish: Ellesborough
County/Island: Buckinghamshire
Country: England
Street address: Beacon House Butlers Cross S O, Ellesborough, Bucks
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Clergyman Church Of England
Registration district: Wycombe
Robert Charles Clarke 44
Kathleen Isabel Septima Clarke 29

so that theory is a NO.


the thing is ... if someone was using an assumed name as may have been the case here, there are all sorts of things that have to be investigated, and many false trails to find ...


and to figure out who the Rupert in the military was, we still have to find something of him before 1891 when he enrolled ... and we still don't know whether he is related to this question in any way ...

this is likely to be the bride in the 1896 marriage, no?

Births Dec 1868
HITCHCOCK Edith Maud Colchester 4a 298

1891

Name: Edith Hitchcock
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1869
Relation: Head - dressmaker
Where born: Colchester, Essex, England
Civil Parish: All Saints
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Essex
Registration district: Colchester



and I'm thinking that if Rupert's sister Louisa de'Capona was in California, that may well be where he was from

The name Maud Hitchcock is not the one
The one I definitely know is Maud Hancock
yes she re married William Carlton, but its RUPERT LYLE
I need to find, who married MAUD HANCOCK....the name is definite
they had 2 sons, one Rupert in 1919 and the other Charles in 1923
Rupert was adopted by his Aunt Jessie (Mauds sister) and Charles was put into Barnados
These are definite facts,
another fact was that on Ruperts(1919) marriage certificate it says his father was an Insurance Clerk

Christine

how old is rupert on his 1919 marriage cert

what is ruperts fathers name

what address is given on the marriage cert

and ruperts occupation