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Looks like there may be a connection to

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=748614.msg5963929#msg5963929

Archibald Macdiarmid in Ireland


bit of aconvoluted story

I will summarise it when i work out the connection

I'm an utter novice at this geneology business, but might be able to shed a little light on the Glossop and Cambusland elements in this thread.

My paternal gradfather, George McDiarmid (d July 1966 aged 86) lived and raised a family in Glossop. (He was a professional footballer, initially in Scotland, then England. His final team was Glossop North End, then in the Second Division. He settled in the town on retirement, married and had two sons).

His elder son was Robert Stewart, my father, b Prestwich 1917, d 1970.
The younger son was Fred, who went down with a submarine in WW2. He left no children.

When growing up in Glossop I knew of no other MDiarmid's in the area, so it seems likely that the NZ visitors referred to in the thread would hve been visiting us. But, if so, I have no recollection of it.

As a child I was taken on regular visits to relatives in Cambusland, 65 (?) Borgie Crescent, to see 'uncle' Jim McDiarmid, his wife Etta, and sons James and George. I think Jim Snr was actually my father's cousin - it was never very clear. George is still alive and living in Scotland; James died many years ago in South Africa.

Family legend had it that one of our ancestors, Donald, was buried "next to the kings of Scotland" at Iona Abbey. I had some scepticism about this but many years later visited Iona and checked. This is what I found: https://familysearch.org/photos/people/9642570

If Donald McDiarmid was indeed a relative, I believe he would have been my great-great grandfather. I do remember that he was usually portrayed as the black sheep of the family, but never heard mention as to why. Perhaps the answer is in thatheadstone: heaven knows what the Kirk would have made in those days of his being married with a 'wife' with whom he did not share a name :-0

With regard to your last paragraph, Stewart. It is very unusual in Scottish graveyards to see a stone where the wife's surname IS the same as her husbands. Women here "keep" their maiden names and in many documents are referred to by both married & maiden names. So, there is nothing in that inscription to suggest that they were not married.

Have you traced your family back to Donald & Catherine Gillies?

Hello Stewart .
Yes it looks like james of Borgie crescent was your father's cousin son of John

Elizabeth daughter of Archibald would also have been his cousin she married my father's uncle Andrew Kyle Macdermid

Your great grandparents George and Mary seemed to have followed traditional naming patterns by naming 3rd son after father and 3rd daughter after mother

As their first son was called Archibald I would expect that was paternal grandfather

married to a Margaret

name so Donald McDiarmid may be another generation further back .


From the earlier censuses as your grandfather Georges siblings were
Archie.catherine. Margaret. james Mary Donald
As these families followed the naming patterns quite rigidly. ....

expect his maternal grandparents to be called Catherine and James

Good luck making the connection

Thankyou Potty, Alisoun: all hints and tips gratefully recieved. Donald was always portrayed in family lore as a bit of a black sheep, but I can at least put that slur to bed.

I haven't yet made the link between great-grandfather George (b 1843) and Donald & Catherine on Iona, but I'll keep at it. I only started this yesterday and am pretty startled to have got as far as I have.

The highpoint so far is discovering that Uncle Fred helped sink an Italian light cruiser off Stromboli in 1942.(Especially poignant since I've unkowingly sailed over the wreck.) He went down with his sub four weeks later. That sub, or one very like it, hit the news only last year when it was discovered off Libya.

Stewart ...Have you seen this..?

http://www.mullgenealogy.co.uk/MullSearch.Asp?indv_no=11905

Have pmd Stewart the 1901 census for his grandfather, George and suggested that he follow him back through the censuses. Have also pointed him in the direction of scotlandspeople.

Stewart, if you go to this site:

https://familysearch.org/search

and put in Donald & Catherine as parents, it will bring up lots of baptisms for their children. It will also give a pointer to where they lived on Islay.

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=748424.9

(above also relates, from Brigid, with Archibald)

Chris :)

Hi Chris that roots thread has been combined with an Irish search for Archibald dohare to follow.

But there is a direct link to Stewart's Islay mcdiarmid s
I have sent him pm

George McDiarmid B 1846 Kilmarnock argyll
m Mary stewart

Archibald D McDairmid b argyll 1869 eldest son James second son
.George McDiarmid third son b1880
Catherine Gilles MCDIARMID second daughter .Margaret first.Mary third

This family lived around shettleston from 1871
George elder going from farmer to steelworker .George younger became footballer

I think the D middle name of Archibald may have been for Donald the patriarch in Islay iona ? b1800
Who married Catherine gillies


There is a post on world families which lists other descendants from 1917 as George the younger descendent's but as stewart says his grandfather George only had Robert and Fred and Archibald's children are given above I suspect these children are from another brother . Will copy and paste or give link when I find it again .

Thankyou, all, for your help over the last couple of days.Hugely appreciated.

The most glaring gaps at present are reliable birth records for 'Iona' Donald, b around 1797;
and for wife Catherine, and heaven knows when she was born.

The mullgeneology site suggests about 1796, I suspect purely on the basis of her headstone giving age 84 on death in 1880. It does helpfully provide us with her parents: Alexander Gillies and Jane Jamieson.

But...
The site goes on to list her ten children, four of whom would have been born after she was past 50, and the last when 63. I suspect that if this were true, she'd be better known than for simply lying next to the kings of Scotland. So something's wrong.

I have a fairly high-res photo of her Iona tombstone, and whilst it's somewhat weathered, I think it reads '1890' for Catherine's death. But it could be 1880, 1888 or even 1898. I've searched for all and can find no record of Catherine's birth or death, only her marriage (1.2.1831). And ditto for Donald.

Any suggestions gratefully received.

If this helps
Info
from WF The McDiarmid DNA project
looks like the first 2 are brothers not father + son !(you'll have to check that Stewart)

George McDiarmid Genealogy b c1757 Island of Islay, Scotland d c1841 m Mary Gillespie ?

Donald McDiarmid b c1797 Kilchoman, Islay, Scotland d 1875 Bunessan, Island of Mull, Scotland m Catherine Gillies


next generation pretty sure from censuses that these are all Donald + Catherines children
1 Jane McDiarmid b c 1832 Kilchoman, Islay, Scotland m Dugald McLean
2 Ann McDiarmid b c1835 Kilchoman, Islay, Scotland
3Malcolm McDiarmid b c1836 Kilchoman, Islay, Scotland
4Alexander McDiarmid b c1839 Kilchoman, Islay,d 1909 m Elizabeth Brown
alexander's children ; Donald McDiarmid b 1864 Kilchoman, Islay
Archibald McDiarmid c1867 Bowmore, Islay, Scotland
Mary McDiarmid b c 1868 Bowmore, Islay, Scotland
Alexander McDiarmid b 1871 Bowmore, d 1940 Greenock, m Alice Wylie

5Margaret McDiarmid b c1843 Kilchoman, Islay, Scotland
6Archibald McDiarmid b c1843 Kilchoman, Islay, Scotland
7George McDiarmid b c1846 Kilchoman, , m Mary Stewart
George's children Archibald McDiarmid b 1869 Dalry, Ayrshire Scotland
Mary McDiarmid b 1871 Shettleston, Glasgow Scotland
Catharine Gillies McDiarmid b 1873 Springburn, Glasgow
Margaret McDiarmid b c1876 Barony, Glasgow Scotland
James McDiarmid b c 1878 Barony, Glasgow Scotland
George McDiarmid b c1880 Barony, Glasgow Scotland

8Catherine McDiarmid b c1850 Kilchoman, Islay, Scotland
9John McDiarmid b c1853 Kilchoman, Islay, Scotland
10Janet McDiarmid b c1856 Kilchoman, Islay, Scotland

That looks right ..hope Stewart
can sort out the next generation of names from an email
who are NOT children of 1880 George but probably nephews + neices
The poster reckonned that the original patriarch George had used the McDermid spelling more .

The 1851 and 1861 censuses give Catherines YOB as 1811 & 1813. That would make her death around 1895 to 1897.

There is this death on SP:


GILLIES CATHERINE 84 1897 549/ 11 Tobermory

MACDONALD CATHERINE 84 1897 549/ 11 Tobermory

I know the MacDonald isn't right, but it might be worth checking the image.

Edit: the above is not your Catherine; the above was the widow of Lachlan MacDonald.

She was still alive in 1881 (Suie Ross is where Donald died)


Name:Cathrine McDairmid
Age:65
Estimated birth year:abt 1816
Relationship:Mother
Gender:Female
Where born:Kilchoman G, Argyllshire
Registration Number:542
Registration district:Kilfinichen and Kilvickeon
Civil Parish:Kilfinichen and Kilvickeon
County:Argyll
Address:3, Suie Farm

Malcolm McDairmid 35
John McDairmid 25
Cathrine McDairmid 65
Cathrine McMaster 15

and in 1891:


Name:Catherine McDiarmid
Age:76
Estimated birth year:abt 1815
Relationship:Mother
Gender:Female
Where born:Kilchoman, Argyll Shire
Registration Number:542
Registration district:Kilfinichen and Kilvickeon
Civil Parish:Kilfinichen and Kilvickeon
County:Argyll
Address:Suie Farm Ho

Not sure if you have this, Stewart:

Name Donald Macdiarmid
Spouse's Name Catharine Gillies
Event Date 01 Feb 1831
Event Place Kilchoman,Argyll,Scotland

Catherine's death record:


GILLIES
CATHERINE 84 1899 542/ 2 Kilfinichen and Kilvickeon

Parents: Alexander Gillies, Weaver & crofter and Jane Jamieson

Possible for Donald's death, although age is out by 2 years:


MACDIARMID DONALD 78 1875 542/ 42 Kilfinichen and Kilvickeon

Thanks all. You are very kind.

And especially Potty for the image of Catherine's death registration:
d 2.1.1899, aged 84, at Suie (as mentioned above, and as on Donald's headstone inscription. Son Malcolm also died at Suie in 1914. Son John was the reporter of his mother's death, so much of the family seemed for many years to have gravitated to that corner of Mull. I've a vague inkling there was a large estate there: perhaps they were tenants or worked for the estate?)

Caherine's age through various census (censae?) seemed to wander a little, as did Donald's, but I daresay that was commonplace at the time.

Yes, Potty, and thanks - I have a copy of their marriage entry from 1832.

Regarding Donald's age at death: the register has a rather florid final digit which is hard to read. It could be a 5 or an 8. Clearly whoever commisioned the headstone thought 75 (hence b1800), but there are other views...

Thanyou, too, Alisoun for all those entries. I'll be going through them over the next few days.

Donald's death registration definitely shows George McDiarmid and Mary Gilespie (sic) as his parents.

I've managed to flag up neither Catherine nor Donald's birth registry on Scotlandspeople (although I have their marriage). Nor Catherine's parents, come to that. As I mentioned, I'm new to all this and have nothing to compare with. Are holes such as this quite normal? ;-)

I'm succumbing to registry-fatigue, I fear and need a dram. Unfortunately the Caol Ila is finished, so it'll have to be a Glenfiddich. (I'm in Greece, so counting my blessings to have either.)

Slange to you all.

Re my MCDERMID s

John mcdermid married Janet Renfrew in 1826

They had daughter Agnes 1827 and my ggfathers duncan in 1829

duncan married Agnes McFarlane

Not got very far with identifying the patriarch
John Mcdermid

Agnes renfrew b1788
parents were James Renfrew and Agnes Dunlop who seem to have had 10 children in Eastwood.

Between 1776 and1814

Baptisms are on OPR but no deaths
James was eldest
Janet 1778
Then Margaret
Alexander

They had another james in 1784 and another I 1787

Death records are not available but they also
Had 2 Margarets two Alexander's
A William and
An Agnes in 1805


all in Eastwood .

Not to be confused with the Paisley family of Renfrew's or the
nother james renfrew who married an Agnes with different surname so there is room for confusion

Luckily Scots baptisms get clearly give mothers maiden name as Dunlop for give children

S P searches aren't going well unless I use exact spellings

Got distracted today by maternal G G ma hunt but may try dong searches on family search next time

For now I.ll work on the assumption that the youngest james Margaret and Alexander survived

I.ll look for them on 1841 and 1851 census maybe their mother or father will turn up with one of them

Stewart, I don't think you will find Donald or Catherine's baptism. Research seems to indicate that there are few, if any, Parish Registers remaining for Islay before 1830.

Thanks, Potty.
I wondered if it was something like that. Now I can stop tearing my hair out.