Find Ancestors

Still can't find Joseph for sure in the 1881. There is this possible 1st marriage for him but I can't find the couple on the 1881:


First name(s)Joseph
Last nameDoyle
Marriage year1872
ParishSt.Marys Roman Catholic Chapel
PlaceDerby
Spouse's first nameMary Ann
Spouse's last nameKennedy
ReferenceDU/26/059
Register Office394
CountyDerbyshire
CountryEngland
Record setDerbyshire Registrars Marriage Index
CategoryBirth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
SubcategoryMarriages & divorces

Associated thread

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1358345

Potty, can you find that Joseph in 1881. I can't see him. He was single in 1871 and a widower in 1891. If we could find him in 1881, we might be able to find his first marriage.

Potty, I thought that was possible for him in 1891 and 1871 too. I had posted those census on page 1.

From the military records you have posted Potty, it really narrows the timescale for Joseph's death if Mary Ellen was widowed when she remarried.

And their marriage

England Marriages 1538-1973 Transcription

First name(s) Henry William
Last name Perfect
Name note -
Age 22
Marriage year 1894
Marriage date 25 Dec 1894
Marriage place Derby
Father's first name(s) Henry Thomas
Father's last name Perfect
Spouse's first name(s) Eliza Annie
Spouse's last name Richardson
Spouse's age 21
Spouse's birth year 1873
Spouse's birth date 1873
Spouse's father's first name(s) Charles
Spouse's father's last name Richardson
County Derbyshire

Perhaps the marriage witnesses

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Liversage Cottages, 16, Liversage Street, Derby, Derbyshire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Henry William Perfect Head Married Male 29 1872 Bricklayers Labourer Derbyshire, England
Eliza Annie Perfect Wife Married Female 29 1872 - Derbyshire, England
Henry William Perfect Son Single Male 5 1896 - Derbyshire, England
Frank Perfect Son Single Male 2 1899 - Derbyshire, England
Annie Perfect Daughter Single Female 0 1901 - Derbyshire, England

Back from walking the dog

???

England Marriages 1538-1973 Transcription

First name(s) Joseph
Last name Doyle
Name note -
Marriage year 1846
Marriage date 23 Feb 1846
Marriage place Manchester
Spouse's first name(s) Ann
Spouse's last name Daley
County Lancashire
Country England
Record set England Marriages 1538-1973
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Marriages & divorces
Collections from Great Britain

Possibly Joseph in 1861:

Name:Joseph Doyle
Age:9
Estimated Birth Year:1852
Relation:Son
Father's name:Joseph Doyle
Mother's name:Anne Doyle
Manchester, Somerset, England - mistranscribed is actually Mancester, Lancashire
Civil Parish:St Alkmund
County/Island:Derbyshire
Country:England

Sub-registration district:St Alkmund

Joseph Doyle 34 - Weaver
Anne Doyle 34
Peter Doyle 13
John Doyle 11
Joseph Doyle 9
All born Manchester

From Lancs bmd:
1848
DOYLE Peter Saint George Archives+, Manchester Central Library, MMN DALY
4851
DOYLE Joseph Saint George Archives+, Manchester Central Library, MMN DALY

1851:

Name:Joseph Doyle
Age:27
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1824
Relation:Head
Spouse's Name:Ann Doyle
Gender:Male
Where born:Ireland
Civil Parish:Manchester

Joseph Doyle 27
Ann Doyle 24 b Ireland
Peter Doyle 2
John Doyle 1

Witness on the cert I have for Joseph Doyle and Mary Ellen Brancroft are Henry Perfect and Annie Perfect

What about this one - occupation is Elastic weaver (same as father's on marriage cert):


Name:Joseph Doyle
Age:20
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1851
Relation:Visitor
Gender:Male
Where born:Manchester
Civil Parish:St Werburgh
Ecclesiastical parish:St Luke
Town:Derby
County/Island:Derbyshire
Sub-registration district:St Peter

George Wheatley 45
Ann Wheatley 39
George Wheatley 18
Sarah Wheatley 14
Maria Wheatley 9
Herbert Wheatley 11
James Wheatley 17
Joseph Doyle 20

Possible the same Joseph, now a painter's labourer, living at Lilum Cottage:


Name:Joseph Doyle
Age:39
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1852
Relation:Boarder
Gender:Male
Where born:Manchester
Civil Parish:Litchurch
Ecclesiastical parish:St Thomas
Town:Derby

Joseph Brane 28
Alexander Brane 26
Eugene Brane 28
Florence Brane 18
James Brane 73
Joseph Doyle 39

Not sure about the Brane name - looks more like Bryne

Do any of these names or the address tie up with the marriage cert (witnesses?)

Also relevant broomstick's other thread about the Barton family:-

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1358345

Could this be your Joseph's death:

Deaths Mar 1917 (>99%)
DOYLE Joseph 64 Derby 7b 768

if so, he would not be the son of Joseph and Ellen Leonard as that Joseph died in Ohio.

Joseph Cyril jnr was killed in WW1 and his service record is on Ancestry and includes a letter dated 8th Sept 1916 stating that his possessions be sent to Mr Joseph Doyle, 16 Carrington Street, Derby. So, presumably Joseph Snr was still alive and living in Derby in 1916.

On joining up, his NOK are give as Joseph and Mary Ellen Doyle, 60 Shaftesbury St, Derby.

There is an acknowledgement of receipt of his medals, dated 14/4/1922 signed by M E Barton.

Joseph was killed 9/08/1915 and his remembered on the Helles memorial.

Saying he is 34 years of age at marriage is no proof of correct age!!

He says he's 44 in 1901 and 59 in 1911

Ah well I will chalk it up to experience I seem to hit so many brick walls in searching for evidence in the part of my tree

If I do not answer any further queries it is because it is midnight here and I have work in the morning :-(
Many many thanks for all the help I do appreciate it :-)

If Joseph abandoned Mary Ellen at some point after 1911, perhaps she called herself a widow for respectability and for the way to marry Samuel "legitimately"

One of my gt aunts was abandoned - the story was he had gone to Canada sometime after their daughters conception at the turn of 1902/3. A good story! Turns out he had remarried in 1904 a couple of counties West and went on to have about a dozen kids. Found out by a remarkably similar signature on both marriage certificates and the 1911 census! And all because I couldn't find anyone of hisname going to Canada until after 1911, so I thought i'd have a look at the 1911!

Gt aunt remarried in 1910 in her maiden name and as a Spinster - haven't found a divorce.

Rootgatherer
They only proof of age for Joseph is on the marriage cert in 1895 which he states he is 34 years old a widower and a railway labourer
The Joseph that I found in Ohio states on the record his fathers name and mothers name which I believe to be correct his birth date is 6th July 1861 Manchester death 21st June 1936 buried at Woodlawn cemetery

The Joseph who was married to Ellen Leonard gives his occupation as Bootmaker, so I don't think his son Joseph was the Joseph you are looking for.

Have you eliminated this man?

1871

Joseph Doyle
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Relation: Visitor
Gender: Male
Where born: Manchester
Civil Parish: St Werburgh
Ecclesiastical parish: St Luke
Town: Derby
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England
Registration district: Derby
Sub-registration district: St Peter
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Household schedule number: 47
Piece: 3568
Folio: 65
Page Number: 10
Household Members:
Name Age
George Wheatley 45
Ann Wheatley 39
George Wheatley 18
Sarah Wheatley 14
Maria Wheatley 9
Herbert Wheatley 11
James Wheatley 17
Joseph Doyle 20

Maybe in 1891?

In 1911 his birth year is 1852

Joseph Doyle
Age: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Male
Where born: Manchester
Civil Parish: Litchurch
Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas
Town: Derby
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Derby
ED, institution, or vessel: 56
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2735
Folio: 31
Page Number: 8
Household Members:
Name Age
Joseph Brane 28
Alexander Brane 26
Eugene Brane 28
Florence Brane 18
James Brane 73
Joseph Doyle 39