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The witness Amelia Cusfoot ? is also in Newton :

Name: Amelia Kerfoot
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: 1842
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Mordicai Kerfoot
Mother's name: Elizabeth Kerfoot
Gender: Female
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Newton Heath
Ecclesiastical parish: St Phillip
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: - looks like Holland St.

Occupation: - Cotton Factory worker.

Condition as to marriage:

View image
Registration district: Manchester
Sub-registration district: Newton
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 63
Piece: 2967
Folio: 60
Page Number: 14
Household Members:
Name Age
Mordicai Kerfoot 40
Elizabeth Kerfoot 38
Amelia Kerfoot 19
William Kerfoot 14
Thomas Kerfoot 11
Mordicai Kerfoot 8
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Dea x

William Isherwood 1866 son of John and Elizabeth nee Ashworth 1891 at 26,George Street.

1901 18 George Street Newton District 25>12
William Isherwood 34
Mary Ann 29
John N 9
Susannah 7

18,George street is Annie's address on marriage.

Also John had brother George 1846 married Elizabeth Leighton widow nee Woodcock had son Henry 1881 who in 1901 is also in Newton D25 > 27.Lodging with Joseph Rigby.

Maryb.

I'd personally try and do a little more digging on Ellen and her family/ siblings to see if anything else turns up before ordering certificates. I don't think they're an easy family to follow so it might take some time.

The marriage cert of John Isherwood and Elizabeth Ashworth is available to view at Ancestry:

Name: Elizabeth Ashworth
Birth Year: abt 1840
Age: 21
Marriage Date: 29 Jun 1861
Parish: Ancoats, St Jude
Parish as it Appears: Manchester, St Jude
Father: John Ashworth (Blacksmith)
Spouse: John Isherwood (age 22, Carder)
Spouse Father: James Isherwood (chair maker)

Both living 14 Greenough Place
Witnesses John Ashworth & Amelia Curfoot (?)
-----------------------------------------------

There are also other records worth exploring-

Manchester Prison Registers 1847-1881 Transcription

name(s) Elizabeth Isherwood
Age 25
Gender Female
Birth year 1840
Birth place Manchester
Birth county Lancashire
Husband: John Isherwood, 54 bk Woodward P
Offence: Drunk & Riotous
Event year 1865
When received date Sep 1865
Place West Gorton
County Lancashire
Date range 1864-1866
Locality of record Belle Vue prison, West Gorton (Manchester City & Borough Gaol)


name(s) Elizabeth Isherwood
Age 34
Gender Female
Birth year 1840
Birth place Manchester
Birth county Lancashire
Husband: John Isherwood- Potter Street, Ancoats
Offence: Drunk & riotous, Sentence: 7 days
Event year 1874
When received date Jul 1874
Place West Gorton
County Lancashire
Locality of record Belle Vue prison, West Gorton (Manchester City & Borough Gaol).

name(s) Elizh Isherwood
Age 36
Gender Female
Birth year 1842
Birth place Manchester
Birth county Manchester
Husband John- Bury Workshouse
Offence: Drunk & Riotous
Event year 1878
When received date Jun 1878
Place Manchester
County Lancashire
Date range 1877-1879
Locality of record Manchester Strangeways Prison
Title of records Female Description Book
---------------------------------------

It looks as though John and Elizabeth lost sons John and Thomas- the dates of Elizabeth's 'drunk & riotous' behaviour may coincide with their death.

Wow so much information... I don't know what to look at first...

I think I need to find John Isherwood (1840ish) Birth certificate don't I ???
So I can confirm his parents names and then order suspected first marriage certificate to see if parents name matches. I am more then happy to do this just so I can confirm what's being suggested above.

Advice please!
Lx

Well done Maryb - that address link looks very positive!

This must all fit together somewhere!

Dea x

Oh, that's great Mary- you've certainly opened it up now- you spotting that address on Annie's marriage was the link we needed:

Ellen was the daughter of John and Elizabeth (nee Ashworth).

SHERWOOD Ellen ASHWORTH 1862 Ancoats Lancashire Archives , Manchester Central Library ANC/102/34
--------------------------------------------------

Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1930
Record Image View

Name: Ellen Isherwood
Birth Year: abt 1863
Age: 20
Marriage Date: 13 May 1883
Parish: Ancoats, St Jude
Parish as it Appears: Manchester, St Jude
Father: John Isherwood >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Grinder
Spouse: Henry Whitchead
Spouse Father: William Whitchead

address for both 10 back Hadfield street
-------------------------------------------

Could this be Ellen in the workhouse in 1871? James Isherwood aged 4 is also listed there. Perhaps this is where Grandad James was too?

First name(s) Ellen
Last name Isherwood
Relationship Inmate
Gender Female
Age 9
Birth year 1862
Birth county Manchester, Lancashire
Birth county as transcribed LANCASHIRE
Street The Manchester Workhouse
Parish Crumpsall
Town Manchester
City Manchester
County Lancashire
Registration district Manchester
Archive reference RG10
Piece number 4064
Folio 114 Page 23

1891 26,George Street Newton D23.32 this is the address of John Patrick Welby on marriage cert to Annie Isherwood.

Henry Whitehead 1865
Ellen nee Isherwood .
William Isherwood visitor age 27.

Ellen daughter of John Isherwood a Grinder married Henry Whitehead 13/5/1883 St Jude Ancoats.

Ellen born 1862 mum nee Ashworth ref Anc/102/34

Maryb.

The John Isherwood who married Elizabeth Ashworth 29/6/1861 was the son of James Isherwood a chair maker born @ 1808.

1861 St Jude Ancoat D43.>7
James Isherwood chair maker 1809
Ann Isherwood 1808
John 21 cotton stripper.

So could this James be the one in the workhouse 1881.
I'am not finding him in 1871.

If John did marry Elizabeth Ashworth in 1861,then maybe that is why he couldn't marry Elizabeth Martin!

Maryb.

Also I was looking to see if I could Elizabeth's (assuming she is going by the name Isherwood at that stage) death certificate and out of the list I chose this one?
Would you all agree?

Name: Elizabeth Isherwood
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Registration Year: 1904
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 63
Registration district: Prestwich
Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 301

Hi, what do you think to this record?

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/30859_A008139-00283/36397181?backurl=http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/32253221/person/18213794070/facts/citation/68043273789/edit/record



1851 Census
Elizabeth Martin
Age 10
Estimated Birth Year abt 1841
Gender Female
Where born Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil parish Manchester
Ecclesiastical parish St Andrews
County/Island Lancashire
Country England
Registration district Manchester
Sub-registration district London Road
ED, institution, or vessel 1s
Household schedule number 59
Piece 2228
Page number 16
Household Members
Name Age
Thomas Martin 45
Eliza Martin 4
Elizabeth Martin 10
Martin 6
Campbell 24
Campbell 24

Thanks Austin, I had looked at that family but I think these are the children's births?

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1863
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
ISHERWOOD William Ancoats Archives+, Manchester Central Library ASHWORTH ANC/108/17


Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1866
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
ISHERWOOD James Ancoats Archives+, Manchester Central Library ASHWORTH ANC/120/15

and..

'Probably' the parents' marriage ?
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1861
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
ISHERWOOD John ASHWORTH Elizabeth Manchester, St. Jude Archives+, Manchester Central Library 90/1/85

I will double check...

Dea x

I haven't followed these through yet as I'm short on time, but if no-one's discounted them when I get back from work I'll take a look.

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
54, Husband Street, Manchester, Lancashire, England

John Isherwood Head Married Male 48 1833 Iron Grinder Manchester, Lancashire,
Elizabeth Isherwood Wife Married Female 41 1840 - Manchester, Lancashire,
William Isherwood Son Single Male 17 1864 Cotton Operative Manchester, Lancashire,
James Isherwood Son Single Male 15 1866 Scholar Manchester, Lancashire, England

Well Lianne,

I think that the name on the birth cert 'may' say something other than Martin BUT the registration on Lancs BMD site clearly gives her as 'Martin' so my 'gut instinct' as you call it is that Martin is correct and that they never got married ! - It was as common then as it is now for this to happen.

I can see no marriages for a John Isherwood to any Elizabeth with a surname which looks any where near the same.

I am in no way convinced that the Eliza in the workhouse in 1881 is the correct Eliza ?

I am, at present, baffled by this one but will not be 'beaten' easily so although I have looked at MANY records, census, military, BMD's, travel abroad, newspapers etc., etc., and on many other sites, I will continue to look further as it must be possible to find 'something' somewhere on John and Elizabeth other than on the 1891 !!!!!

I will come back with anything I find...................

Dea x

Dea & mary b. what is your gut instinct here?

1911 If you haven't got it.
89,Malcolm Street Clayton Manchester.
John James WELLEY (Welby on original) born Bradford Lancashire
Annie born in Bolton married 15years 6 children 3 died.

The Eliza Isherwood in the same workhouse 1881 says she is single.

I was thinking that Elizabeths name on Ann's birth said Maclin as the T wasn't crossed and the R didn't look like other R's on the certificate.

Maryb.

I wondered that too MaryB. Change of staff? Loss of documentation? lazy book keeping??

On the 1881 census for Annie in the Workhouse it says not known where born, but if she was born in same Workhouse then why didn't they know??

Maryb.

As you can see from my message above Lianne, I have discounted these births as I found them to be the children of a William Isherwood and a Hannah Martin.

The information was found on these 2 FREE sites which you will find extremely useful for the Lancashire area.

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/


Dea x

Looking at the dates of birth, don't you think John & Elizabeth might be too old to still be having children in the late 1800's?

Amazing Dea, I clearly have much to learn. Can I ask where you searched for the birth records? was it through Genes Reunited?

Do you think I should order the birth certificates to see their movements and John's occupation status during that period?

Surely they must have got married?!?!

Thank you so so much, I really needed a mentor x