Find Ancestors

its quite possible -- but still no birth cert .

Mavis

Ellen's death ??

Ellen Barrett born 4/10/1900 died June 1981
London City V14 P0781.

Is this what you have? could she have been born 1900 and not 1899.

Maryb.

Just seen this post. I don't want you to waste your time, so just a quickie to let you know that since posting that family, I worked out that it was a different family.

this may be Winifred birth

Winifred Hoare Sep Q 1882 Holborn 1b 697

Look and see if you can find a death that may match
within 2 or 3 years in Holborn / Clerkenwell areas

and also a death for Ellen that may match in the same way

Mavis

From the Marriage cert of George Hoare in 1917 he's father William Hughes was deceased. going back to last post again area and names seem right but surely Ellen is to old to have children born in 1902 and 1905. do you think they could be the children of elder daughter Winifred?

this is what was posted earlier --- could be William's wife with daughter
Winifred -- ages a bit out - not unusual -- but Ellen 1901/02 could be Winifred's daughter so maybe George's niece .

Do we know when William died -- search for the death of this Ellen 1849. to
see who was the informant

1911
Address
24 Easton St

Civil Parish
St James and St John Clerkenwell

Sub District
Clerkenwell
Registration District
Holborn
RG14 - PN1234 RD14 SD2 ED19 SN308

Ellen Hoare 62 1849 Female Head Widow Clerkenwell Char Woman
Winifred Hoare 26 1885 Female Daughter Single Baker St Kings Cross Box Maker (Cardboard)
Ellen Hoare 9 1902 Female Daughter Red Lion St Holborn School
Jinnie Hoare 6 1905 Female Daughter Red Lion St Holborn School


no births recorded but still in the right area as many of other Hoare's

Mavis

This is really doing my head in !! I really thank you all for your patience. Everything you come up with makes sense but can't tie any of it together. Going back to Mary's question about Nelly, Ellen M Barrett born 1935, has a grand child called Nelly named after Nelly Hoare and indeed Ellen M Barrett and her siblings, mother's name was Hoare, which brings me to Ellen Hoare born 1899 living with William Barrett, still not found her birth. The only certainty is that she is related to my George Hoare born 1884 and close enough for all the current Hoare family to remember her name before they were sure of their own grandfathers name as George!! only confirmed by copy of marriage cert. Will look at my mounting paper notes and all your posts again and again.

Can I just go back to the beginning, are you saying Ellen/Nellie Hoare 1899 was the mother or the grandmother to Barrett children that you refer to.

I keep going back to Ellen Hoare 1872 who married Daniel Baptiste.She had children after he died but in his name.
I can't find her in 1911 under Baptiste/Baptist or Hoare

This could be her
Ellen Baptiste married 1921 to William Thorogood in Holborn 1b 1113
Ellen Thorogood 1873 died Holborn 1950 5c 575.

When looking at Electoral registers for 2,East Street Camden/Holborn it seems William Baptiste with Ellen is also under the name of William Thorogood.
1920 he is Baptiste 1921 Thorogood
1926 2,East Street back to Baptiste and at no 5,East Street is Thomas and Elizabeth Hoare.


Edit found them now
1911 65 Lambs Conduit Street says married!!
William Thorogood 58 Holborn
Ellen Thorogood 40 Smithfield
Winifred 11
George 8
Mary Ann 5
Nelly 2
Maggie 7 months.

Maryb.

could the family have gone to Ireland for visits ??

not all the Hoare children are recorded for births not found one for Mary Ann 1888
could the younger children belong to another member of the family and
taken under the wing of " Hoare's"

Ellen 1898 could well have the same mother as George a late child born when mother on the " change" as we say

perhaps the Irish 1901 and 1911 census could give some clues ??

I have a record of Margaret Goodings [ Hynes] born Belfast as we saw from
the 1881 census Patrick is father born1822

you need to think outside the box a little bit

Mavis

I have my doubts about the copy from the GRO as there is clearly some names under the 2 names of the married couple, it may not be relevant by why not give me the full cert. Thanks Mavis for the info above, it all makes sense but still can't see a clear Nelly/Ellen Barrett nee Hoare born 1900 connection to the William Hoare and Ellen Hines tree?

Oh, pity it was a registry office. As far as I know, it's only church wedding certificates that are kept at the record offices. I could be wrong though.

It dosn't sound as though you've been sent a copy of the original, as I'm sure that would have been signed.

Marriage cert for George Hoare and Alice Ada Reading, dated 24 December 1917 at the register office in the district of Holborn, witnesses Kate Hodges and Albert Hatswell. I have a pic of it on my phone if you would like to see it. Hughes is very clear as the father in the same handwriting as Hoare. It can't be a mistake but would like another opinion.

Nicola, Can you please let us know exactly where George and Alice were married. Was it a Registry Office, or Catholic church?

I'm just wondering if it's possible for someone to see the original certificate.

I'm not sure how, but maybe Hoare was mistranscribed as Hughes.

located Thomas Hoare 1877 in 1881 son of William and Ellen Hoare


7 Abercrombie Place St Andrews Holborn

George Gooddings 29y Printer born St Lukes Middlesex
Margaret Gooddings 29y ----------- Ireland
Patrick Hines 59y -- Gen Labourer -- Ireland
Thomas Hoare 4y Nephew -------born Middlesex

this is the same address where in 1871 William and Ellen Hoare
with baby Margaret Hoare are and also some members of the above family

we know William Hoare and Ellen Hines= 1868 Holborn

George Goodings = Margaret Hynes Jun Q 1876 Holborn 1b 1114

Ellen's sister -- Hines / Hynes / Haynes

Thomas Hoare 1877 = Elizabeth Burley Dec Q 1898 Strand 1b 1240

you can find him 1911
1 New North St. - Theobalds Road Bloomsbury

the Lipscombe family - George and Margaret in 1901
Lambs Conduit Passage Holborn

George 31y Cab driver and groom Peckham
Margaret 31y ------------------------- Clerkenwell
Winifred 9y
Charles 7y
George 5y
Margaret 10 mths
William 3y

1911 add
Edward 1902
Thomas 1904
John 1906
Mary 1908
Florence 2 mths

You may well need a researcher to research the various churches and chapels
within the Holborn area -- including those of R C connection --- to see if baptisms can be found for George as Hoare or Hughes as he says father William Hughes !! -- had a thought on that could William Hoare 1855 changed his surname to Hughes ?? they do seemed to have disappeared after 1891 -- I wonder

there are a lot of Irish links to many of the families in this area

Mavis

This family is the biggest headache but I am convinced that the William Hoare born 1850 and wife Ellen Hines born 1849 in Ireland, along with the Baptist's, Lipscombe's and Barrett's have to be the right family.
Now just have to put all the pieces together.
No doubt I will have to order copies of certs to try and find some answers but which one's?? Trying to focus on the connection between George Hoare born 1881 ish to Ellen (Nelly) Barrett nee Hoare born 1899, the only 100% certain family connection
Thanks again to you all, I would have given up long ago.

I wonder if this is her in 1911 - Pastor St. Clerkenwell

Ellen Hoare widow 62 Charwoman Clerkenwell
Winifred Hoare Dau 26 Baker st. Kings X
Ellen Hoare Dau 9 Red Lion St. Holborn
Jinnie Hoare Dau 6 Red Lion St. Holborn

I can't find suitable births for these girls.


I see from the school admissions that Winifred went to school in Southwark in 1894
Signed in by George Lipscombe

William Hoare married Ellen Hines in Holborn 1869 1b 1071

Ellen Hines born 1849 Ireland, there is someone with a locked tree on ancestry with this couple.

Maryb.

think this may be Wiliam Barrett -- note Mother is a Florist [Natural]

1911


Address
10 Benjamin St, Clerkenwell E C

Civil Parish
The Charterhouse St Sepulchre

Sub District
Holborn

Registration District
Holborn

Image Reference
RG14 - PN1213 RD14 SD1 ED17 SN220

Elizabeth Barrett 43 1868 Female Head Widow Saffron Hill Clerkenwell Florist (Natural)

William Barrett 13 1898 Male Son Francis Court Clerkenwell School

if Williams birthday at the end of the year then he would have been
14y and born 1899

birth
Dec Q 1899 Holborn 1b 680
----------------

that looks interesting Mary ------ Ellen Barrett was buried in Roman C grounds
as was George Hoare still think there may be some Irish connections some where

Mavis

Can't get my head round these not being connected.
Posted by Argyllgran census for 1891 on 1st page of thread.
the 3rd on for George 1884 to William 1850 Warwickshire and Ellen 1849 Ireland in Holborn.

All these people are in the same area as Doughty Mews,William is down as a labourer but on marriage for Margaret Hoare to George Lipscombe in 1891 he is a Bricklayer.
Ellen Hoare 1872 also married in May 1891 her dad William a Bricklayer,Ellen married Daniel Baptiste born @ 1870 died ? Camberwell 1893.

1901 Fisher Street/Red Lion Square
Ellen Baptist widow has children Charles Baptist 14/10/1894 and Winifred Baptist 1900.I can't find any records of these two children.With her is Eleanor Hoare born 1849 in Ireland it says she is Aunt but I think she is her mum.
No sign of the Baptist's after this!

Margaret and George lipscombe lived Gray's Inn lane and red Lion Square George Lipscombe was a Horsekeeper 1901.

Daniel Baptist had a brother Joseph who also was a Horsebreaker 1901/1911.

Back to George Hoare,he is put into Laystall Street School by William on 6/5/1895 date of birth given as 11/12/1885 no way can I find this record.

1903 Holborn Workhouse George Hoare age 18 = 1885

When viewing map all the addresses for the Hoare family ie Saffron Hill,Grays Inn,Red Lion Square etc are very close to Doughty Mews,too close for them not to be related in some way.

Maryb.

Thanks Christina - I just found that marriage too :-(

Have you also ruled out this one?

Birth - Dec 1899:
Hoare Eleanor Louise Marylebone 1a 546

Dea x

EDIT: - Oooops - looking back through my copious notes I find I have already discounted her - she was born 10th Dec 1899 in Queen Charlotte's Hospital !

Dea x