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From an earlier post......................."On her marriage to Charles in 1884 her dad was deceased"


...........................so he may have been invented

The above birth, with mmn:

SMITH, ELLEN mmn PODMORE
GRO Reference: 1855 D Quarter in ASTON Volume 06D Page 238

Brothers:

SMITH, HARRY mmn PODMORE
GRO Reference: 1853 D Quarter in ASTON Volume 06D Page 243

SMITH, JOHN mmn PODMORE
GRO Reference: 1857 D Quarter in ASTON Volume 06D Page 275


Harry Smith
in the 1861 England Census
Name Harry Smith
Gender Male
Age 7
Relation Son
Estimated Birth Year 1854
Father's Name William Smith
Mother's Name Eliza Smith
Where born Birmm, Warwickshire, England [ Birmingham]
Civil parish Aston
Ecclesiastical parish St Matthew
County/Island Warwickshire
Country England
Registration district Aston
Sub-registration district Duddeston
ED, institution, or vessel 18
Neighbors
Household schedule number 22
Piece 2177
Folio 119
Page number 5
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
William Smith 42 Head - Brewer and cooper employing 2 men
Eliza Smith 42 Wife
Arabella Smith 16 Daughter
William Smith 14 Son
Thomas Smith 11 Son
Bessy Smith 9 Daughter
Harry Smith 7 Son
Frederick Smith 1 Son
Caroline Spratt 21 Servant


SMITH, ARABELLA mmn PODMORE
GRO Reference: 1844 D Quarter in ASTON UNION Volume 16 Page 178

So it looks as if that Ellen, and her brother John, died in infancy -

SMITH, ELLEN 1
GRO Reference: 1857 S Quarter in ASTON Volume 06D Page 178

SMITH, JOHN 0
GRO Reference: 1858 M Quarter in ASTON Volume 06D Page 180

The baptism posted by Kay???? showing a birth date of 15 Nov 1855 could possibly be this registration (if she later added the Letitia).

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Births Dec 1855
Smith Ellen Aston 6d 238

The baptism records shows they were living on Aston Road at the time.

Name Ellen Smith
Age 0
Birth Date 15 Nov 1855
Baptism Date 2 Dec 1855
Baptism Place Aston, St Peter and St Paul, Warwickshire, England
Parish as it Appears Aston, St Peter and St Paul
Father
William Smith
Mother
Eliza.

This William Smith was a Cooper at the time,,a beer barrel maker........

Unfortunately - Her birth may not have been registered. Although registration began in 1837, it didn't become a legal requirement to do so until the mid 1870's. Even then not all births were registered.

If illegitimate, there may not have been a baptism either and whoever she names as a Father may not have been correct. Or if her Mother married after her birth Ellen may have taken on the surname of her step father. and given that at marriage.

Not everyone was truthful about their age.

Place of birth is not always accurate. If she moved at an early age to somewhere other than her place of birth it may be that she thought that was where she was born.

Sorry haven’t been on this site for quite a while. I still can’t find her birth or mothers name unfortunately . I have both her marriage certificates and her death certificate. She died of pneumonia after giving birth to a daughter who also died four months old.

Thanks everyone

So sorry to read how poor Julius died and that their first child Elzabeth was born disabled. I would love to know if anyone has any photos of the Spencer family.

This would be him on 1881 - Note the name of Witness Frederick Checkley !!!


1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
1 & 2 Cartwright Arms, 1, Summer Lane, Birmingham, Warwickshire, England

Learn more
Print transcription View image
Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Charles York Shopman Head Single Male 24 1857 In Wine & Spirit Merchant Employ (Proprietor) Welford, Northamptonshire, England
Transcription
Charles Farley Shopman Head Single Male 28 1853 In Employ Of Wine & Spirit Merchant Lincolnshire, England
Transcription
Thomas Taylor Shopman Head Single Male 27 1854 In Employ Of Wine & Spirit Merchant Bulkington, Worcestershire, England
Transcription
*****Fredrick Cheekley Shopman Head Single Male 27 1854 In Employ Of Wine & Spirit Merchant Marton, Warwickshire, England
Transcription
Sarah Ann Randle Servant Widow Female 34 1847 Cook Knowle, Warwickshire, England
Transcription
Emily Beresford Servant Single Female 17 1864 Housemaid Sheldon, Warwickshire, England
Transcription
Emma Bidmead Housekeeper Single Female 49 1832 House Keeper Stroud, Gloucestershire, England

Dea x

dob in 1858 fits with 1891 census as well...but still doesn't help find her birth!



Jude

Hi Charles was 27 and Ellen was 25 on her marriage certificate in 1884 which is three years older than if she was born 1862. Charles was an assistant, Witnesses were Frederick Checkley and Emma Coleman. Fred was with Charles and his brother George in the 1881 census. Emma was looking after Minnie ( my paternal grandmother) when Ellen worked in the Laundry at a school in Barnard Castle. Julius Spencer's sister also worked there.

Charles father was John a shoemaker, on the census his mother is Elizabeth but I sent for his and brother Georges birth certificates and mother is Ann Flowers, more confusion. I found a Charles York married to Louise with a daughter Daisy in Leicester. I think him and Ellen both remarried bigamistly, divorce was too expensive then. I wrote to the Warwickshire police archives but they had no record of him at all so I don't know if or where he was a policeman.

Something I don't understand, Marilyn. You say that Charles was NOT a policeman yet on the baptism of Minnie in 1885 as posted by Austin it says father Charles York, policeman.

Hello Marilyn,

Is it just Cromwell Street? Is there any number- there are lots of Smiths in Cromwell Street

Who were the witnesses on the first marriage?

What was Ellen's age on her first marriage?

What was Charles York age, his address, and father's name?

Thank you everyone for your help. I have Ellen's marriage certificates to both Charles York and Julius Spence. She lived in Cromwell St when married to Charles and Vickers St when married to Juliius. I know she died after giving birth to a daughter Ellen Letitia who also died but I didn't know she had a daughter Elizabeth which I will follow. I can't find Ellen's birth or her mother or her dads family. Birmingham library couldn't find her for me. Charles was not a policeman in Warwickshire and I think he left her and "re married" in Leicester, couldn't find an early death for him. Sometimes Ellen is Helen or Helena but I think Ellen is the correct one. On her marriage to Charles in 1884 her dad was deceased.

What a coincidence Margee! Just a shame your family wasn't the Smiths.

I think we're going to need the details from Ellen's first marriage to Charles York to progress further- it would hopefully give an address and maybe related witnesses.

I had a bit of a problem with the Elizabeth Spencer born 1893, daughter of Julius & Eleanor. The only Elizabeth Spencer born 1893, Middlesbrough that I have in my tree was the daughter of Edwin & Elizabeth. Edwin was the brother of my Herbert and also the brother of Julius' father William.

A little more searching found that there were 2 Elizabeths born 1893. I didn't have the one born to Julius & Eleanor.

Births Jun 1893 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spencer Elizabeth Middlesbro' 9d 628
Spencer Elizabeth Middlesbro' 9d 631

I think Eleanor Letitia probably died in childbirth. I have a daughter Ellen Letitia Spencer born 1898 and died 1899.

Wow, it's not very often that someone posts a query about a person that I have in my tree!

Not that I can help with her ancestry but her second husband, Julius Thomas Spencer is a 1st. cousin of my gt. grandfather, Herbert Spencer.

Minnie, her daughter

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Mar 1905 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dodsworth George Whorlton Middlesbro' 9d 781
YORK Minnie Louisa Middlesbro' 9d 781


1911 in Middelsborough

George Whalton Dodsworth 31
Minnie Louisa Dodsworth 26
Ida Dodsworth 3

4 children born only one still alive. So sad.

She died 1936 age 51

Andy

Can't see a death for Charles York between 1885 and 1891.

Also, seem to have found everything about Ellen except her birth.

Andy

Listed as Ellinor in 1891- also widowed

1891:

Name: Ellinor Letitia York
Age: 33
Estimated birth year: abt 1858
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Aston, Warwickshire, England
Civil Parish: Barnard Castle
Ecclesiastical parish: Barnard Castle
Town: Barnard Castle
County/Island: Durham
Registration district: Teesdale
ED, institution, or vessel: North Easton County School
Piece: 4081 Folio: 116 Page Number: 12