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Have checked - I have ten Samuels (such originality) and none of them fit so, no, I don't think there is any overlap!

Jude

Will double check when i get back friday...but quick check here none of my samuels ..and i have several...were born 1873. My cordings appear to have moved to bradford lancs initially and then i have several living and dieing in chorlton. The nearest samuel i have married an eliza brown but can't find any children...and he'd have only been a boy in 1873

Jude

(if you use GR for Records, have a look at below, presume they carry them also?)

Chris :)

(edited, info. now added)

Manchester School Admissions Registers (Find My Past)

Sam Carden 1872 1875 Hulme St Philips Free School Hulme
(Birth 29/9/72. 28 Howard St)


Sam Cardin 1872 1880 St Philip's Boys Samuel Hulme
(Birth 29/9/72. 76 Crown St. Parent/Guardian Samuel)


Sam Cardin 1872 1880 St Philip's Boys Maria
(Birth 29/9/72. 4 Edge Ct. Edge St. Parent/Guardian Maria)

The army one is a puzzler - as I said, no NoK named. Shame the two addresses on attestation couldn't be linked .........

I can only find the birth of one Samuel Card* from 1871 to 1873 and that's the 1872 Q3 Chorlton one. If that's your lad then they must've been pretty quick to register him within the quarter if he really was born 29 Sep ..... (How reliable is a birth date given 17 years after the event when baptised?).

Penalties for non registration of births wasn't enforced until 1874 (following Mary Ann Cotton's shenanigans) so there could possibly have been another Samuel Card* born around the same place/time and not recorded (although I can't see any such chap on the census).

My gut reaction would be that the soldier is your chap.

A very quick look on GR suggests the Bilston Cordings came to Hulme via Prestwich in around 1870-1890, and the first names are mostly unfamiliar. I really hope there's no overlap! I've written off-thread to HeyJude.

BUT

Samuel Carding who joined the Army twice in 1890 has a birth date Jan 1873 (unless he told the Army both times "sometime in 1873" and they assumed January). My Samuel Carden who was born September 1872, baptised in February 1889, and married in Q2 1891, is rather more securely identified as the son of the persistent offender Samuel "The Tailor" Carden. Is there scope for the failed soldier to be a different chap?

Hugh

My mother was a Cording whose grandparents came from Bilston. One of the siblings moved to manchester and several were born in chorlton. They were regularly mistranscribed as carding. Can't double check anything as on hols. Jude

There are quite a few mentions of Samuel snr in the British Newspapers (use variants of the surname).

This from FindMyPast but you should be able to find on this site (as well as all of the workhouse records):

England & Wales, Crime, Prisons & Punishment, 1770-1935 Transcription

First name(s) Samuel
Last name Carden or Carding
Occupation Tailor
Age -
Birth year 1847
Birth date ? ? 1847
Year 1891
Date ? ? 1891
Place Manchester
Court -
Series MEPO6
Source Habitual Criminal Register 1892
Piece number 4
Record set England & Wales, Crime, Prisons & Punishment, 1770-1935

He had (at that time) 24 previous convictions and had served sentences in Strangeways.

Re Samuel snr and the workhouse - the records on FMP are very clear - when he was admitted 12 Sep 1890 the discharge date was 31 Oct 1890.

There are numerous entries for Samuel Carden/Cardin/Carding between 1873 and 1907.

ADDED: There are also several entries for Maria with surname variants. In 1878 the entire family (both Samuels, Maria and John were admitted)

This is the same lad as above:

British Army Service Records 1760-1915 Transcription

First name(s) SAMUEL
Last name CARDING
Birth year 1873
Birth parish MANCHESTER
Birth town MANCHESTER
Birth county LANCASHIRE
Birth country ENGLAND
Service number 2531
Rank -
Regiment -
Document Type Attestation
Attestation year 1890
Attestation Day 18
Attestation Month 4
Attestation age years 17
Attestation age months 3
Attestation Corps 4TH BATTALION ROYAL LANCASTER REGIMENT
Attestation service number 2531

Although less than two months since previous attestation (referred to in the document) his address is now 17 Queen Street, Hulme.

The lad obviously mustn't have been cut out for army life - he bought himself out of the Manchesters and reason for discharge on this one was "Absconded en route 19/04/1890"

Shame there's no next of kin on this record, it's the attestation papers only:

British Army Service Records 1760-1915 Transcription

First name(s) SAMUEL
Last name CARDING
Birth year 1873
Birth parish MANCHESTER
Birth town MANCHESTER
Birth county LANCASHIRE
Birth country ENGLAND
Service number 3053
Rank -
Regiment -
Document Type Attestation
Attestation year 1890
Attestation Day 28
Attestation Month 2
Attestation age years 17
Attestation age months 1
Attestation Corps 4TH BATTALION MANCHESTER REGIMENT
Attestation service number 3053

He was a labourer, address looks like 10 Baxter Street, Hulme, Manchester. He was discharged by purchase soon after.

I think Samuel's snr's occupation on the 1889 baptism is Tailor and not Sailor. Look at the differences (image link provided by mgnv) between the "T" in tailor and the "S" in Samuel.

That particular entry in the baptism register was by the curate C Johnson - in other entries by him the "S"'s (e.g. Shoemaker) are consistent.

(I had posted below earlier, but as Tailor!, would that fit more looking at image posted by mgnv perhaps?)

Chris :)

Baptism
County Lancashire
Place Hulme (Manchester)
Church name St Mark
Register type
Register entry number 1216
Baptism date 16 Feb 1889
Birth date 29 Sep 1872
Person forename Samuel
Person sex M
Person abode 3 Kingston Street
Father forename Samuel
Father surname CARDING
Father occupation Tailor
Mother forename Maria

http://www.freereg.org.uk/


edits (just an observation, you may already know!, but notices Samuel 1841 with Marriage witness William Fogg, his wife was Ellen Rothwell, Marriage 1829, Manchester Cathedral, from Ancestry, they have below collection)


Manchester, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1930 (Cathedral)
Manchester, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1901 (Cathedral)
Manchester, England, Deaths and Burials, 1813-1866 (Cathedral)

Many thanks again.

LATER EDIT Ignore the rest of this message.. As others have pointed out, the word is Tailor, not Sailor, and anyway it refers to Samuel senior (the father)

So Samuel 1872/3 was a sailor in and after 1889. I'm amazed by the information coming in, and I shall have to explore the local on-line records people have cited, to see if Samuel 1846 and Maria died sometime in the 1880's, precipitating Samuel 1872 becoming a sailor??

I just remembered that the Manchester Ship Canal was completed in 1893, bringing ocean-going ships to the centre of Manchester. New opportunities for adventurous young men?

Hugh

MC - thanks for providing the census and the m.cert images.

Seeing they were living in St Mark, Hulme on the 1851 census, I looked it up on lancs-opc, not really expecng much as there's not too much methodist stuff there.
I didn't find anything for Sol, but here's his grandson:

Baptism: 16 Feb 1889 St Mark, Hulme, Lancs.
Samuel Carding - [Child] of Samuel Carding & Maria
Born: 29 Sep 1872
Abode: 3 Kingston Street
Occupation: Sailor
Baptised by: C. Johnson Curate
Register: Baptisms 1874 - 1900, Page 152, Entry 1216
Source: LDS Film 2357302
[NB 16 y.o.]
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FM1M-JSZ [with image link]


Re the GRO index hit:
Deaths Mar 1858 (>99%)
CARDING Samuel Solomon Chorlton 8c 424

Here's another reason for using LancsBMD pre-1866, as age of death is listed:
Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1858
Surname Forename(s) Age or Year of Birth Sub-District Registers At Reference
CARDING Samuel Solomon 37 Hulme Archives+, Manchester Central Library HUL/52/455

Incidentally, if I click on the "Chorlton" link in the original above FreeBMD hit, then the more info "here" link, I get a list of villages and civil parishes that ever were in Chorlton RD, headed by:
CHORLTON REGISTRATION DISTRICT
Abolished : 1.1.1925 (renamed Manchester South registration district).
Sub-districts : Ardwick*, Barton, Chorlton upon Medlock*, Didsbury*, Gorton, Hulme*, Openshaw, Rusholme, Stretford.
Registers now held by : Manchester, Salford and Trafford.
[I've *-ed the subdistricts for 1851-1911]

I was on the Manchester FHS site yesterday, and they expect their project of retro-fitting the mum's maiden surname to the Manchester birth index will be completed in 5 y time.

I may have found Samuel Cardin est 1847 in 1890, admitted to Chorlton Union workhouse, described as tailor, on 12 September 1890. But he was discharged (not dead) on an unreadable date that malyon says is 1892. He had been in the workhouse before, and I wonder how far these short stays were effectively nursing home stays.

I can't find either Samuel Cardin 1846/7, or his wife Maria nee Fox 1845/6, or either child, Samuel Cardin 1872/3 or (adopted) John William Fox Cardin 1867/8 after their appearance in the 1881 Census at Abram Street (see Rambling Rose entry 16 October above). Where were they in 1891? Did Samuel 1846/7 and Maria die at some time in the 1890s? I can't find them. Wouldn't workhouse inmates be listed on the Census? Where was 18 year old Samuel after 1881? Apart, that is, from getting married to Jane Pemberton Strafford in Q2 1891, both aged about 18, and having four children by 1901?

I don't mind all that much, as I think I have a fairly clear line now through to the 1901 Census where Samuel b 1872/3 pops up again (I have had a separate thread about confusions over his mother-in-law., now solved well enough).

Hugh

I would never have a Platinum sub on here but it's a facility available to all, even the basic membership (which is all I would pay for on this site).

Click on "Keepsafe" on the menu above and it's all there. It's where you save images of records you've looked at or photos, images, etc that you've uploaded to attach to your tree

Because I only keep a very basic tree on GR (preferring other sites) I tend to just use the Keepsafe as above. When sharing a document you've uploaded you just need to be sure that you've changed the settings for the particular item to "Shared with everyone" and then just post the URL for that image. Bit like a primitive version of e.g. Dropbox

Marie Celeste,

Thank you so much. I agree that the names look very like Solomon Carding and the name below might be Eliza, and isn't exactly like Ellen below that.

Also, thank you for the 1841 marriage record. I note that Solomon's father is Michael "Wesleyan Preacher" and Solomon is Turner & fitter (I think). it all fits and confirms.

I don't understand the "keepsafe" description. Is this something I can use with my GR Platinum sub? How do I find the pages?

Hugh

PS Samuel Cardin chr 25 December 1809 in Matlock. This is probably the uncle Samuel who trained up "my" Samuel in Derby in the 1861 Census. Solomon Cardin chr 16 April 1820 in Matlock. This is "my" Solomon, father of "my" Samuel. These brothers are among ten children of Michael and Elizabeth Cardin b Matlock between 1800 and 1825, one of whom had the "other" Samuel trained by uncle Samuel in 1851 and 1861.

Time to stop.

Hugh

Image of the 1841 marriage:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/keepsafe/asset/details/20291660

Looking at an enlarged image of the actual census return (not the typed version on FindMyPast) I'd say the names were definitely Solomon and Eliza.

Don't know if the detail will be sufficiently clear on this link

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/keepsafe/asset/details/20291617
(left of page)

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/keepsafe/asset/details/20291685
(right of page)