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I may have missed something over the 2 threads but i am not convinced about that Alice Mary marriage...on everything else Frederick uses his middle initial but not on that marriage?

edit well maybe it is because he uses the W on the 1891..the occupation is different...

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Cherville Street, Romsey Infra, Romsey, Hampshire, England


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First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Harry Elcock Head Married Male 27 1864 Painter Romsey, Hampshire, England
Agnes Elcock Wife Married Female 28 1863 - Romsey, Hampshire, England
Agnes G Elcock Daughter - Female 5 1886 Scholar Romsey, Hampshire, England
William F Elcock Son - Male 1 1890 - Romsey, Hampshire, England

Dorothy 1911

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Church Lane Romsey, Romsey Infra, Hampshire, England
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First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Occupation Age Birth year Birth place
Harry Elcock Head Married Male House Painter And C 50 1861 Hampshire Romsey
Agnes Elcock Wife Married Female - 49 1862 Hampshire Romsey
Mabel Elcock Daughter Single Female Dressmaker's Apprentice 16 1895 Hampshire Romsey
Gladys Louisa Elcock Daughter - Female School 13 1898 Hampshire Romsey Transcription
Hilda Elcock Daughter - Female - 6 1905 Hampshire Romsey

Dorothy Gertrude Elcock Granddaughter - Female - 4 1907 Hampshire Romsey <<<<<<<<<<<

Thomas Keel Visitor Widower Male Plaster's Labourer 52 1859 Hampshire Romsey

Taking the liberty of posting the OP from that previous thread as it gives more background

"Margaret Report 22 Aug 2011 21:21

I have a Harry Elcock and wife Agnes who have five children - Agnes Gertrude 1886, William Frederick 1889, Mabe 1895l, Gladys 1897 and Hilda 1905.. They were born Romsey, Hampshire and were still doing so 1901. On 1911 census (I cannot find my note of this at the moment) both eldest daughter Agnes and son William are missing. I presumed William had married because also on the census was Dorothy Gertrude ELCOCK age 4 described as grand-daughter. I found a marriage for William to Helen Hebdige in 4Q 1909. I found three children for this marriage - none of which was Dorothy Gertrude. The three children were born 1909, 1913 and 1916 respectively. I then decided to look for a marriage for an Agnes Gertrude and found a marriage in 3Q 1906 to an Albert Richard Betteridge. Both of these marriages were Romsey. If this is the correct marriage for Agnes, she had two more children Rideley and Hartley. At this point it was decided to send for Dorothy Gertrude's birth certificate and what a shock when it arrived. She was born in The Gardens, Romsey (the Workhouse) Romsey on 25 September 1906 - mother Agnes Elcock and NO FATHER !! Obviously Dorothy was illegitimate so no chance of finding the father BUT the Agnes/Betteridge marriage was July/August/September 1906. I am wondering if Agnes gave birth, came straight out of the workhouse and her mother took over so that she could marry ??? I had more or less come to accept that this was probably the case but can't be sure. However, my next step was to look at William Frederick's military records (he was killed 1917). There on his papers were details of his children, the fact that his wife remarried, his kith and kin - mother and four sisters - but sister Agnes Gertrude referred to as GERTRUDE CLAYTON. It looked like she too had remarried and was known by her second name. This was understandable as her mother was also Agnes.. I tried to find a marriage of an Agnes Betteridge to ? Clayton between 1911 and 1919 - nothing. I then tried Gertrude Betteridge to Clayton. No joy. On the off-chance I also tried the same combination using Elcock. Nothing. Apart from her birth certificate and her appearance on 1911 census, I can find no reference - marriage/death for Dorothy. Any ideas what else I can do to solve these two problems? The area concerned is Romsey, Hampshire area. I would welcome any thoughts/ideas you may have. Thanks."

Just googling to try and find details of the road accident and found this previous thread which would have been useful to know about,

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1278113

The death in 1923 appears to be this one? :-S

Deaths Sep 1923 (>99%)
CLAYTON Agnes F 38 Lewisham 1d 828

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
80, Bird in Bush Road, Camberwell, London, England

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Alice Clayton Head Married Female 35 1866 - -
Transcription
Beatrice Clayton - Single Female 8 1893 - -
Transcription
Herbert Geo Clayton - Single Male 6 1895 - -

to go with the above 1901 census for Robert C Dover

is this a coincidence ??????????

1881
Name: Frederick Clayton
Age: 12
Estimated birth year: abt 1869
Relationship to Head: Nephew
Gender: Male
Where born: Bermondsey, Surrey, England
Civil Parish: Leatherhead
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Education:

Employment status:

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Occupation: Scholar
Registration district: Epsom
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 763
Folio: 6
Page Number: 5
Household Members:
Name Age
John Collins 59
Mary Ann Collins 59
Robert Charles Dover 54
Emma Leakey 31
Frederick Clayton 12
(not transcribed)

Thank you everyone for your valiant efforts. What a mix-up this family appears to be. Frederick & Alice marry and appear to have 3 children Fdk 1890, Beatrice 1893 and Herbert 1895. On 1911 census Frederick & Agnes Gertrude claim to have had 3 children, 2 alive, one age 7(b1904?) and one 6 mths b. 1910/11. In the interim Frederick appears to be living with another Jane? presumably acting as wife. Agnes Gertrude is 25 in 1911 so if the children on 1911 are actually hers - then she would have been 17/18 at most when she gave birth. However, she did give birith to an illegitimate daughter in 1906 in Romsey - Dorothy Gertrude. This being the case the 7 year old in 1911 cannot be hers as he would have been born 1904 !! Goodness me, they seem a right pair do SAgnes and Frederick. Incidentally, Agnes Gertrude was run over whilst crossing the road in Lewisham in 1923 and was killed leaving behind several children. I have not been able to read the account of this in any newspaper. Perhaps it wasn't such a big deal way back then. Thanks again everyone for really going to town on this.

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
North Road, St Paul Deptford, Greenwich, London, England

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Fred W Clayton Head Married Male 26 1865 Drapers Traveller Southwark, Middlesex, England
Transcription
Alice Clayton Wife Married Female 26 1865 - Westminster, Middlesex, England
Transcription
Frederick Clayton Son - Male 1 1890 - Peckham, Middlesex, England

1901 200 Commercial Road Peckham
Robt C Dover 1826 Edmonton Middlesex tea taster
Fredk M Clayton 1890 Camberwell a scholar and visitor (Frederick Marx clayton??)

1881 leatherhead surrey
Robert Charles dover 1826
Frederick Clayton nephew 1869 Bermondsey Surrey son of Frederick (a seaman then tea taster)and Frances Clayton.

So is 1901 census correct for the right Frederick Marx Clayton?

Maryb.

Frederick Marx Clayton in 1901
Census details
First name(s) Fredk M
Last name Clayton
Relationship Visitor
Marital status Single
Gender Male
Age 11
Birth year 1890
Occupation Scholar
Birth town Camberwell
Birth town as transcribed CAMBERWELL
Birth county Surrey
Birth county as transcribed LONDON
Birth place England
Birth place other as transcribed -
Other household member first name(s) ROBT, FREDK
Other household member last name DOVER, CLAYTON
Street Commercial Road
Town -
Parish Camberwell
City -
Country England
County London
Municipal ward 8 Goldsmith
Registration district Camberwell
Archive reference RG13
Piece number 509
Folio 117
Page 24
Record set 1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Category Census, land & surveys
Subcategory Census
Collections from Great Britain
(c) brightsolid online publishing ltd

Well the one living at 45 Elswick Road seems to be the right one as he is there for sereral census records. Goodness only knows who his real wife is!!!!!!!

Kath. x

????


1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Buildings, 21, Clarence Terrace, Islington, London, England

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Frederick Clayton Head Married Male 41 1860 Stock Keeper (Hardware) Hoxton, Middlesex, England
Transcription
Agnes Clayton Wife Married Female 35 1866 - St Pancras, Middlesex, England
Transcription
Florence Clayton Daughter - Female 14 1887 Assistant To A (Photographer) Strand, Middlesex, England
Transcription
Frederick Clayton Son - Male 11 1890 - Holborn, Middlesex, England
Transcription
Elizabeth Clayton Daughter - Female 7 1894 - Holborn, Middlesex, England
Transcription
Edith Clayton Daughter - Female 4 1897 - Islington, Middlesex, England

possible for that marriage to eliminate

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Lockerley Green Romsey Hampshire, Lockerley, Hampshire, England
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First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Occupation Age Birth year Birth place
Albert Betteridge Head Married Male Bricklayer Labourer 27 1884 Awebridge Hants
Agnes Betteridge Wife Married Female - 27 1884 Mottisfont Hants
Rideley Gurtrude Betteridge Daughter - Female - 2 1909 Lockerley Hants T
Hartley Betteridge Son - Male - 0 1911 Lockerley Hants

One of the Romsey Agnes' marriage?

Marriages Sep 1906 (>99%)
Betteridge Albert Richard Romsey 2c 215
BETTERIDGE Albrert Richard Romsey 2c 215
ELCOCK Agnes Romsey 2c 215
ELKINS Elizabeth Mary Romsey 2c 215
Sillence Harry George Romsey 2c 215

edit married Betteridge

Ooh Mary - maybe he had two wives on the go BEFORE Agnes!

It's definitely a G on the census

Jude

According to a tree on Ancestry first child was Ernest T born 1904 in Lewisham

Jude

1901 45 Elswick Road same as 1911
Frederick W Clayton house painter married born Deptford
Jane Clayton wife 43 born Wiltshire?

he was there in 1892 also!!

Maryb

If you haven't got a marriage for them how do you know Agnes's middle name is Gertrude? Do you have birth certificates from one of the children that gives her full name?

Katyh. x