Find Ancestors

More on Lizzie/Elizabeth.


I think this might be her in 1881 in Tenby:

Name: Elizabeth Waters
Age: 32
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relation: Housemaid
Gender: Female
Where born: Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Civil Parish: Tenby St Mary in Liberty
County/Island: Pembrokeshire
Country: Wales
Street address: 6 Croft Terrace
Education:
Employment status:
Occupation: Housemaid<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Registration district: Pembroke

and that she married there in 1884:

First name(s) ELIZABETH
Last name WATERS
Birth year 1849
Marriage year 1884
Marriage day 4
Marriage month Sep
Place TENBY
Spouse's first name(s) WILLIAM
Spouse's last name BELT
Bride's age 35
Groom's age 39
Bride's parish -
Groom's parish -
Bride's father's first name(s) Joseph
Bride's father's last name Waters
Groom's father's first name(s) James
Groom's father's last name Belt
Parish Tenby

Bride's father is Joseph Waters, a deceased engine driver.
EDIT: Groom is an Ironmonger, and his father a deceased labourer.

Amelia goes to school, with Rachel in the parent or guardian column:

First name(s) Amelia
Last name Waters
Birth year 1869
Birth date 15 Oct 1869
Event year 1876
School name Begelly School
Town Begelly
County Pembrokeshire
Country Wales
Parent name(s) Rachel Waters<<<<<<<<<<<
Book type Admissions
Archive reference SSR/1/2/5

I've proposed that Lizzie/Elizabeth/Eliza is the younger sister to Rachel, older sister to Jane Waters.

see census 1861:

1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Withy Bed, Begelly, Narberth, Pembrokeshire, Wales

Joseph Waters Head Married Male 42 1819 Engine Driver Pembrokeshire, Wales
Anne Waters Wife Married Female 38 1823 - Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Ben Waters Son Unmarried Male 18 1843 Miner Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales
>>>>>Elizabeth Waters Daughter Unmarried Female 12 1849 Scholar Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales
John Waters Son Unmarried Male 10 1851 Scholar Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales
William Waters Son Unmarried Male 8 1853 Scholar Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Anne Waters Daughter Unmarried Female 5 1856 - Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Joseph Waters Son Unmarried Male 3 1858 - Begelly, Pembrokeshire Wales
James Waters Son Unmarried Male 1 1860 - Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales

Possible baptism as Eliza:

First name(s) ELIZA
Last name WATERS
Birth year 1848
Birth day -
Birth month -
Baptism year 1848
Baptism day 17
Baptism month Sep
Place BEGELLY
Mother's first name(s) Ann
Father's first name(s) Joseph
County Pembrokeshire
Country Wales
Record set Pembroke Baptisms

Kucinta - you are just too good. as I read that I completely agree as if you say Emily and Amelia - they sound so much alike and I could understand how they would be spelt incorrectly. thank you.

So who is Elizabeth/Lizzie?

this is the 1881. Personally I think niece Emily in the 1871, might be Amelia, possibly a miswriteup by the census enumerator when compiling the census book Note this time Margaret Ann and Mary are described as daur, but Amelia as niece.:


1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Broom Lane, Begelly, Narberth, Pembrokeshire, Wales

Rachel Waters Head Single Female 35 1846 Farm Servant Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Margaret Ann Waters Daughter Single Female 16 1865 Domestic Servant Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Amelia Waters Niece Single Female 11 1870 Scholar Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Mary Waters Daughter Single Female 10 1871 Scholar Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales

Emily and Amelia are approximately the same age.

Amelia's mother is given as 'Lizzie' a servant, on her baptism

First name(s) AMELIA
Last name WATERS
Birth year 1869
Birth day -
Birth month -
Baptism year 1869
Baptism day 05
Baptism month Dec
Place BEGELLY
Mother's first name(s) Lizzie<<<<<<<<<<
Father's first name(s) -
County Pembrokeshire
Country Wales
Record set Pembroke Baptisms

EDIT: Is 'Lizzie', Amelia's mother, rachel and Jane's sister Eliza/Elizabeth Waters born c1849? Perhaps as Rachel already had little Margaret, she got landed with the care of her sister Lizzie's baby as well, then went on to have a further two, Mary and Annie, herself.

Wow thanks! I couldn't find the Annie myself but I'll have a look.

The contact I have here has this on his tree.

Rachel Waters - two children - Mary and Margaret ( father unknown )
Rachel Waters - siblings - William and Jane Waters
Rachel Waters - parents - Joseph Waters (1821) and Unknown
Rachel Waters - marriage - Thomas James (1891)

But then he has Joseph married to an Anne having: Ben, Elizabeth, John, Anne, Joseph and James.

^^ I had these in my tree but with the same parents as Rachel Jane and William - but maybe they were children from first and the rest from a second marriage.

These ancestors didn't make things easy for me I must say!!

Mary goes to school:

First name(s) Mary
Last name Waters
Birth year 1870
Birth date 07 Oct 1870<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Event year 1877
School name Begelly School
Town Begelly
County Pembrokeshire
Country Wales
Parent name(s) Rachel Waters<<<<<<<<<<<<
Book type Admissions
Archive reference SSR/1/2/5
Folio / page no. -
Archive Pembrokeshire Archives
Record set National School Admission Registers & Log-books 1870-1914

Annie goes to school:


First name(s) Annie
Last name Waters
Birth year 1884
Birth date 15 Feb 1884<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Event year 1888
School name Begelly School
Town Begelly
County Pembrokeshire
Country Wales
Parent name(s) Waters Rachael<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Book type Admissions
Archive reference SSR/1/2/5
Folio / page no. -
Archive Pembrokeshire Archives
Record set National School Admission Registers & Log-books 1870-1914

Not a problem - at least you're examinig all the evidence you/we can find, and not just taking anyone's word at face value, which can be easy to do when someone shares their tree with you. :-)

It's also a question of putting all the pieces of evidence we can glean together to build up as complete a picture as possible.

Thanks Kucinta - your probably fed up of me by now! :-|

Just seen it... I found an Amelia there, but not an Annie - seems she was a busy bee back in the day if she had these children.. but their father is unknown.. which leads me to believe further that she didn't have any children once she married Thomas James...as she had already had 3/4

Natalie - have you seen the baptism I posted for a 4th daur for Rachel, Annie?

Name:
Rachel Waters

Age:
25

Estimated birth year:
abt 1846

Relation:
Daughter

Father's name:
Joseph Waters

Gender:
Female

Where born:
Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Joseph Waters 50
Rachel Waters 25
William Waters 18
Joseph Waters 13
James Waters 11
Jane Waters 7
Margaret Waters 6 <<<<<< Rachels Daughter
Emily Waters 1 <<<<<<< I believe she is Rachels daughter - but cant find her after this
Mary Waters 6 Months <<<<< Rachels Daughter

The marriage might give their ages, or just say o'f full age' ie over 21 if they were at the time. You have their ages in the 1911 census, but the year is taken from their age at the time of the census, so might be a year or so out, depending on when their birthdate was in relation to the census.

The 1911 census says John was aged 22, in fact he would have been about a month shy of his birthday, as the 1911 census was taken at the beginning of April.

As I said before the 2nd qtr 1881 BMD cert fits well with the birthdate of 11th may 1888 on the baptism, but I can't guaranteee it for you.

If I got John & Carries birth certificate.. would that show their birth years? sorry, I just a bit confused... I don't want to have to wait around for one that's wrong. so if there's another way first, such as getting the marriage certificate, id rather do that.

I think it's definite that Rachel had three girls before she was even left home as they also went with her when she moved to live on her own in the 1881 census. but then theres an Amelia living with her too - who is down as her niece. The third daughter - Emily Waters, disappears from the census records.

sorry, am I making sense or just confusing everyone else too? sorry!

Is this the' nieces' in census 1871?


1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Broom, Begelly, Narberth, Pembrokeshire, Wales

Joseph Waters Head - Male 50 1821 - Pembrokeshire, Wales
Rachel Waters Daughter - Female 25 1846 - Pembrokeshire, Wales
William Waters Son - Male 18 1853 - Pembrokeshire, Wales
Joseph Waters Son - Male 13 1858 - Pembrokeshire, Wales
James Waters Son - Male 11 1860 - Pembrokeshire, Wales
>>>>>>>>>>Jane Waters Daughter - Female 7 1864 - Pembrokeshire, Wales
Margaret Waters Niece - Female 6 1865 - Pembrokeshire, Wales<<<<<<<
Emely Waters Niece - Female 1 1870 - Pembrokeshire, Wales<<<<<<<<
Mary Waters Niece - Female 0 1871 - Pembrokeshire, Wales<<<<<<<

There seem to be three....


Margaret seems to be Rachel's....

First name(s) MARGARET ANN
Last name WATERS
Birth year 1865
Birth day -
Birth month -
Baptism year 1865
Baptism day 14
Baptism month Apr
Place BEGELLY
Mother's first name(s) Rachel<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Father's first name(s) -
County Pembrokeshire
Country Wales
Record set Pembroke Baptisms

Mother a servant.

Mary also Rachel's, can't find Emily:

First name(s) MARY
Last name WATERS
Birth year 1870
Birth day -
Birth month -
Baptism year 1870
Baptism day 29
Baptism month Dec
Place BEGELLY
Mother's first name(s) Rachel
Father's first name(s) -
County Pembrokeshire
Country Wales
Record set Pembroke Baptisms

Mother a 'single woman.

Finally another child, Annie, did they know of this one??

First name(s) ANNIE<<<<<<<<<<
Last name WATERS<<<<<<<<<<<
Birth year 1884
Birth day -
Birth month -
Baptism year 1884
Baptism day 27
Baptism month Feb
Place BEGELLY
Mother's first name(s) Rachel<<<<<<<<<
Father's first name(s) -
County Pembrokeshire
Country Wales
Record set Pembroke Baptisms

Mother a servant.

I think we crossed, have you seen my answer re birth cert (the post before yours, above)

I think you need John and Carrie's marriage cert anyway, to be sure of who her father was, and what his occupation was.

Quite possible children were born out of wedlock.

Would I be better off getting john and carrier's marriage certificate first? would that tell me their birth years?

also, back to Rachel Waters, ive just had another look at the other persons tree - and they believe that Rachel had two children - not with Thomas James - but with another, a daughter born in 1865? When I looked on census records, I did find these two children in Rachels household where she lived with her parents - but they came up as nieces to Joseph Waters... could she have had these two out of wedlock?

Going by the baptism:

First name(s) JOHN<<<<<<<<<<<<
Last name WATERS<<<<<<<<<<
Birth year 1888
Birth day 11<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Birth month May<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Baptism year 1888<<<<<<<<<<<
Baptism day 03
Baptism month Jul
Place BEGELLY
Mother's first name(s) Jane<<<<<<<<
Father's first name(s) -
County Pembrokeshire
Country Wales
Record set Pembroke Baptisms
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records

this cert:

Births Jun 1888 WATERS John Narberth 11a 968

tallies best with the birthdate of 11th May 1888, but these things are always a bit of a gamble.

EDIT: I suspect this is the death of the John waters whose birth was registered 1st qtr 1889:

Name: John Waters
Birth Date: 13 Feb 1889
Date of Registration: Jun 1975
Age at Death: 86
Registration district: Swansea
Inferred County: West Glamorgan
Volume: 27
Page: 2118

Thank you for all the information. It was mainly just confirmation about the Thomas James that the other person had on their tree as they have a lot of the Waters line on their and wanted to see if they were actually the same family.

I was going to buy John Waters' birth certificate, but when I tried looking at his birth year, it varies - one is I thin 1888 and the other 1889? I don't know what date I should put in as I don't want the wrong one.


England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915?
Birth, Baptism & Christening
View Image

Name: John Waters
Birth: Apr 1888 - Narberth, Pembrokeshire

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915Birth, Baptism & Christening
View Image

Name: John Waters
Birth: Jan 1889 - Narberth, Pembrokeshire

Emma Elizabeth and David Williams had a daughter Eliza Jane baptised at Begelly in 1880, again, David was described as a farmer not a police officer:

First name(s) ELIZA JANE
Last name WILLIAMS
Birth year 1880
Birth day -
Birth month -
Baptism year 1880
Baptism day 08
Baptism month Aug
Place BEGELLY
Mother's first name(s) Emma Elizabeth
Father's first name(s) David
County Pembrokeshire
Country Wales
Record set Pembroke Baptisms

Births Sep 1880 WILLIAMS Eliza Jane Narberth 11a 839

Looks like little Eliza Jane made the move to Hackney where her parents were in the 1881 census I posted, but she died before the census took place:

Deaths Mar 1881 WILLIAMS Eliza Jane 0 Hackney 1b 363