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Sorry if I've annoyed everyone :-(

Sorry for the jump..you're all going to hate me.
Lots of time on my hands as I'm off work for half term!

Hi Theresa.(Kucinta) and everyone else :) Me again!

I've been looking over information you sent me a few weeks ago..

You sent these two possibilities..


Possibility #1 - Carolines Parents
George H Owen Head Of Family Married Male 30 1861 Collier -
Elizabeth Owen Wife Married Female 27 1864 - Rhymney, Monmouthshire, Wales
Sarah Ann Owen Daughter Single Female 6 1885 Scholar Glamorgan, Wales
Eliddis A Owen Daughter Single Female 4 1887 Scholar Glamorgan, Wales
Eliza Jane Owen Daughter Single Female 3 1888 Scholar Glamorgan, Wales
Caroline Owen Daughter Single Female - - - Clydach Vale, Glamorgan, Wales <<<<<<<<<<<
Thomas David Lodger Married Male 66 1825 Collier Rhymney, Monmouthshire, Wales

Just to complicate the issue, I have now found this CARRIE Owen, so that marriage cert might really be needed:

Possibility #2 William and Sophia
77, Edmund Street, Ystradyfodwg, Pontypridd, Glamorganshire, Wales

Sophia Owen Head Widow Female 47 1854 - Merthyr, Glamorgan, Wales
David D Owen Son Single Male 15 1886 Under Ground Colliery Door Boy Glamorgan, Wales
Carrie Owen Daughter Single Female 10 1891 - Tylorstown, Glamorgan, Wales <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
John Evans Boarder Single Male 23 1878 Coal Miner Hewer Aberdare, Glamorgan, Wales

Same family in 1891?

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Edmund Street, Ystradyfodwg, Pontypridd, Glamorganshire, Wales

William D Owen Head Married Male 38 1853 Coal Miner Pwllheli, Caernarvonshire, Wales
Sophia Owen Wife Married Female 38 1853 - Merthyr, Glamorgan, Wales
Thomas J Owen Son Single Male 17 1874 Coal Miner Aberaman, Glamorgan, Wales
Gwiby M Owen Son - Male 14 1877 Coal Miner Aberaman, Glamorgan, Wales
Martha J Owen Daughter - Female 11 1880 Scholar Glamorgan, Wales
David D Owen Son - Male 7 1884 Scholar Glamorgan, Wales
Caroline Owen Daughter - Female 1 1890 - Glamorgan, Wales<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

*********************************

I think..I've found something... haha..probably wrong, I'm trying!!
After lots of census records... I found this... which leads me to believe that Elizabeth and George are Carolines parents. if you look - the address in which the lived is 6 Beatrice, Blaengwynfi.. where later Caroline and john lived in the same street (number 14) I know its a long shot, but this must be them as its such a coincidence otherwise, don't you think? Especially with the same name as Caroline. I looked at other census records and found that the George aged 17 living there, was living with them when they lived in Abergwynfi, 10 years before? Just wondered what you thought?

Elizabeth Owen

Age in 1911:
48

Estimated birth year:
abt 1863

Relation to Head:
Wife

Gender:
Female

Birth Place:
Rumney, Glamorgan, Wales

Civil Parish:
Glyncorrwg

County/Island:
Glamorgan

Country:
Wales

Street address:
6 Beatrice Blaengwynfi Port Talbot

Marital Status:
Married

Years Married:
27

Estimated Marriage Year:
1884

Registration district:
Neath

Registration District Number:
592

Sub-registration district:
Glyncorwg

ED, institution, or vessel:
02

Household schedule number:
84

Piece:
32657

Household Members:
George Owen 51
Elizabeth Owen 48
George H Owen 17

Yes. That's definitely her brother. My great uncle Roy. I think there was only the two of them by the same parents. Their father - had children with another woman before these x

Her brother's birth?

Births Mar 1941 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Horton Royston Francis E. Glamorgan 11a 1740

She had a brother born in 1941 Royston Horton.. I'm unsure of any other siblings with the same parents. I know she has other siblings (dont know their names) but her father had them with another woman. I've ordered her birth certificate just to see.

Thanks for the info on the Cetha - after hours looking, I did finally figure out that it wasn't a relation. Thanks guys!

Did Zelda have brothers 'R' born 1941 East Glamorgan and 'J' born 1946 Newtown?

same parents' surnames on those births





edit

I purposely did not post the birth details since the people were born in the 1940s and I didn't know (do we know?) whether they are living now.

Births Mar 1938
Horton Zelda F (mother's surname Francis) E.Glamorgan 11a 1123

this seems to be the problem - you need a Mr Horton marriage to a Ms Francis, not the other way around like the one you are looking at:

Marriages Jun 1935
Francis Ronald Horton E. Glamorgan 11a 1973
Horton Atha D A Francis E. Glamorgan 11a 1973 (this was the original mistranscription)
Horton Cetha D A Francis E. Glamorgan 11a 1973

and then that Cetha dies as Francis, as you note, not Horton

Name: Cetha A Francis
Birth Date: 12 Dec 1913
Date of Registration: Nov 1999
Age at Death: 85
Registration district: Glamorgan

so that marriage is unrelated

(fortunately since I can't find hide nor hair of a birth for her!)

quite possibly Zelda's mother had been married before, so while her surname on Zelda's birth was her birth surname, she married under her first married surname

Zelda's birth certificate will tell, and there is probably nothing for it but to get it


edit - or Margee has found the marriage ... but still, you need the birth certificate to confirm

Could it be this marriage?

Marriages Sep 1936 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Francis Mary E Horton Newtown 11b 235
Horton John Francis Newtown 11b 235

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you think I could have been mistaken?

I just found this


England & Wales, Death Index, 1916-2007?
Death, Burial, Cemetery & Obituaries
Name: Cetha Doreen A Francis
Birth: 12 Dec 1913
Death: Nov 1999 - Glamorgan, Glamorgan, Wales

But she died as Cetha D A Horton??

Hi all. Hope you are all well.

I'm currently stuck in a rut. Gone back as far as I want *for now* with my Waters line and now wanting to look at my grandmothers line (Horton)

I just wondered if you could help as its seeming a bit tricky before I even start.

My Grandmother Zelda Francis Horton was born in 1938
I don't know her mothers name - Only that her maiden name was Francis. Again, I don't know her fathers name - other than his surname Horton. I also know that he was married before and had children with a previous wife before marriage and children with my grandmothers mother (Surname Francis)

When searching for any marriages between Horton/Francis the only one I can find is one that comes up as Cetha D A Horton and a Francis - which I think is a Ronald.. so this cannot be her mother and fathers marriage.. how can I get this information? am I just doing something wrong?

sorry for the confusing message.

Ahh yeah that's right. Thanks Kucinta. I've neglected my family tree lately but I'm hoping to get back on it soon as I've been busy with work x

If the records are available online, then yes, otherwise, no. :-D

EG Ancestry has a lot of parish records from the London Metropolitan archives, amongst other collection.

EG I found a baptism record for a John Waters son of Jane Waters on FMP.

However I did not find the actual baptism or marriage record of Jane Waters online, so used census records to assume her father was Joseph,and earlier census records combined with a death record to then surmise her mother was called Ann, and also that Jane almost certainly married Thomas Harries (combining the census with a possible marriage on the BMD Index), but to be certain, the certs would be better.

But what about searching online? Would I be able to find out such information? X

A father's name would usually be on the person's marriage cert, unless the person was illegitimate, and even then a 'father' was sometimes created to save face.

A baptism record would normally have at least the father's name, more commonly both the names of the father and the mother, though earlier baptisms sometimes just had the father's name.

In the case of an illegitimate child, the name of the mothe would normally be on the baptism register, and sometimes, if you're really lucky, the name of the father.

Is there any way I can find out a first name of a father/mother or do you definitely need a birth certificate?

I didn't think I would get so interested but it's amazing. I've even got my mother doing her own family tree too and she has found some amazing things for her Griffiths and Morgan line. I just don't know how to thank you.

I'm just going to catch up with all the information you have given me now and try and slot it all in. The GR member I said I was in contact with, I do think that the Waters line he has is related to me - I just think his dates are a bit out and I have - with your help - been able to find matching dates, records etc. Thank You.

I'm certainly not professional, though it's really nice of you to say so <3

Like a lot of people who help out here on this thread and the forums, I just really get caught up in it all, and love solving the puzzles that some of our ancestors pose. The more you find out, the more 'real' our ancestral relatives become.

I'm away from my laptop now but Kucinta I really do appreciate all your help. You are a professional! I could never have found out all of this information without your help. You have been amazing x

This could well be Lizzie's death in 1894:

Deaths Mar 1894 BELT Elizabeth 45 Pembroke 11a 684

She is here recorded as Bell in 1891, and seems to have had a daughter of her marriage:


1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Frog Street, St Mary Tenby in Liberty, Pembroke, Pembrokeshire, Wales

William Bell Head Married Male 46 1845 Ironmonger Carew, Pembrokeshire, Wales
>>>>Elizabeth Bell Wife Married Female 44 1847 - Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Elsie Bell Daughter Single Female 6 1885 Scholar Tenby, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Phoebe Bell Mother Widow Female 73 1818 - Loveston, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Thomas Bell Brother Widower Male 44 1847 Builder Carew, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Frederick Williams Servant Single Male 19 1872 Ironmonger Pembroke Dock, Pembrokeshire, Wales

Her daughter:

Births Mar 1885 BELT Elsie Phoebe Pembroke 11a 969

Elizabeth, here called Lizzie, in Tenby in 1871:

Name: Lizzie Waters<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1849<<<<<<<<<<<<
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Beyolley, Pembrokeshire, Wales [Begelly on census image]<<<<<<
Civil Parish: St Mary Tenby In Liberty
Ecclesiastical parish: St David
Town: Tenby
County/Island: Pembrokeshire
Country: Wales
Registration district: Pembroke
Sub-registration district: Tenby

Looks like Rachel got to keep house for her widowed father, and bring up her own and her sister's illegitimate daughters, as well as her own younger siblings like Jane; and Lizzie/Elizabeth got to go out and at least earn her own keep, possibly to send back money to the family?