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?
The entry is on freebmd-

the original index states James Wynn Williams- it is not a transcription error.

You can order the certificate from the GRO

No marriage cert found at Newcastle, I think the wynn is in fact edwin ?

? now I'm confused!! :-)

Did you order this marriage certificate?
name(s) JAMES WYNN WILLIAMS
Marriage quarter 1
Marriage year 1886
MarriageFinder™ JAMES WYNN WILLIAMS married one of these people
MARY ANN ROBINSON, ISABELLA JOHNSON
District NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE
County Northumberland
Volume 10B Page 120

Another PM from Susan - have once agin asked her to return to the thread

Birth cert arrived today for Harriet Alice Williams 16/91882 no wonder I couldn't find her I have been looking for Harriet Frances cert shows James W Williams as father but that means very little Mother as Isabel Williams nee Johnson.
Cant find any marriage cert to confirm wedding date.
Found marriage cert for James McCann and Isabel Williams married 21/6/1893 stating she was widowed her fathers name is Murphy so she must have been married 3 times.

Also had a PM today from Susan, slightly different from yours Gritty

Just a quick update on the above gentleman. Have been in touch with Berwick regarding his marriage cert and Sheffield for his birth cert. His daughter Harrietts birth was not lodged in Newcastle although she was baptised in St Marys in Newcastle, im thinking that perhaps she was born somewhere else to someone else as it was sometime from her birth to her mother marrying James. I assumed because they were both hawkers they never stayed in one place long enough to registar on the census
Regards
Sue

My reply by PM-

Gritty posted a more likely marriage for him in Newcastle in 1886 and you do say above Harriett was born (c1883) some time before the marriage. Have you bought the Marriage certificate as suggested as it would name his father if a) he knew him or b) he didn’t make him up.

I suggested ?Eckington as his place of birth as the possible 1881 census had him as born Kington, Derbyshire. This is close enough to Sheffield for him to say that as a POB - people often seem to have said they were born somewhere that others would have heard of and accents were often misheard. Eckington would be Chesterfield RD. Unfortunately although birth reg. started Q3 1837, it was not until the mid 1870’s that there were penalties for not registering, so James may not have been registered.

How do you know that he married an Isabella Johnson if you don’t have the marriage certificate?

How have you arrived back at his name in the first place.

Hawker was often, but not always, indicative of gypsy families.

Harriet’s baptism only gives her mother’s name. no father is named so I think it’s odds on he wasn’t the father and that Harriet was illegitimate.

Susan, please come back to the thread, acknowledge the help you have already had and add your comments there instead of sending personal messages, you might get some more help. And please answer the questions posed there, they are designed to help us help you.

Have received a pm from Susan:

"Have enquired at Newcastle regarding this marriage and date it came back
as no one of those names or dates registered. My quest takes me to Berwick
will let you know outcome
Regards
Sue"

Hello Sue- it's easier if you can reply on the message board using the 'Add your reply' box at the bottom of the page.

If you're referring to the marriage below that I posted earlier, then you can order the marriage certificate from the GRO by putting in James Wynn Williams and using the Volume & Page numbers (Volume 10B Page 120):

The is the website for the gro:
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/

First name(s) JAMES WYNN
Last name WILLIAMS
Marriage quarter 1
Marriage year 1886
MarriageFinder™ JAMES WYNN WILLIAMS married one of these people
MARY ANN ROBINSON, ISABELLA JOHNSON
District NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE
County Northumberland
Volume 10B Page 120

As previously advised, get a copy of the marriage cert...........and hope that he knew his father

????

Only James Williams attached to a unit based in Sheffield in 1871

1871 Worldwide British Army Index - British Army Other Ranks & locations

First name(s) James
Last name Williams
Service number 3085
Rank Sergeant
Unit or Regiment 2nd Bn 14th (Buckinghamshire - The Prince of Wales's Own) Regiment of Foot
HQ location Sheffield
Notes Form or at the 1st Bn 14th Regt Depot
Year 1871
Country Great Britain
National Archives reference WO 12/3221
Period 01/04/1871-30/06/1871
Record set 1871 Worldwide British Army Index - British Army Other Ranks & locations
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Subcategory Regimental & service records
Collections from Great Britain

-------------------------------------------
Which is this chap in 1861 going by the service number

1861 Worldwide Army Index Transcription
First name James
Last name Williams
Service number 3085
Rank Corporal
Unit or Regiment 1st Btn 14th Foot (Buckinghamshire)
Regiment stationed at Jamaica
Year 1861
National Archives reference WO12 / 3179
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Subcategory Regimental & service records
Collections from Great Britain

The 1881 census says James is from Kington, Derbyshire. Am wondering if this is in fact Eckington, Derbyshire, which is about 8 miles SE of Sheffield, just about on the Derbys/Yorks border - probably why he says he is from Sheffield (a place that would have been heard of) but Derbyshire.

????????
Am Wondering if this could be him in 1871 - Image shows him as a Soldier but unfortunately gives no service number or regiment

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census
First name(s) James
Last name Williams
Relationship Head
Marital status -
Gender Male
Age 34
Birth year 1837
Occupation -
Birth town - <<<<<<<<<<< not transcribed but Image has Sheffield
Birth county Yorkshire
Birth county as transcribed YORKSHIRE
Birth place England
House name -
Street Sheffield Barracks
Parish Hallam, Nether
Town Sheffield
City Sheffield
County Yorkshire, Yorkshire (West Riding)
Country England
Registration district Ecclesall Bierlow
Archive reference RG10
Piece number 4665
Folio 116
Page 19

Image shows him with Wife - Mary Williams age 29 also born Sheffield

I'll remind Susan of how to find her replies :-)

Good find, safc....still can't find Harriet though on the BMD Index

Ooh, nice find safc :-)

Name: Harriet Francesca Johnson
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 27 Sep 1882
Christening Place: St. Mary's Clayton Street, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Northumberland, England
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name:
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Isabellae Johnson
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I05214-2
System Origin: England-EASy
GS Film number: 1936949
Reference ID: item 3-4 p 410



Citing this Record:
"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NT5N-WR8 : accessed 30 July 2015), Harriet Francesca Johnson, 27 Sep 1882; citing Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Northumberland, England, reference item 3-4 p 410; FHL microfilm 1,936,949.

????


1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Blue Bell, Brampton, Cumberland, England

Learn more
Print transcription View image
Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas D Parker Head Married Male 41 1840 Innkeeper Brampton, Cumberland, England
Transcription
Sarah Parker Wife Married Female 38 1843 - Moss Side, Cumberland, England
Transcription
Mary T I Parker Daughter Single Female 14 1867 - Oakbank, Cumberland, England
Transcription
Joseph Parker Son Single Male 10 1871 Scholar Oulton, Cumberland, England
Transcription
Jane Ann Parker Daughter Single Female 7 1874 Scholar Cumberland, England
Transcription
John Parker Son Single Male 6 1875 Scholar Cumberland, England
Transcription
Sarah H Parker Daughter Single Female 3 1878 - Brampton, Cumberland, England
Transcription
Betsy G Parker Daughter Single Female 1 1880 - Brampton, Cumberland, England
Transcription
John Dalton Visitor Married Male 37 1844 Grocer Yorkshire, England
Transcription
James Williams Visitor Single Male 42 1839 Labourer General Kington, Derbyshire, England

Deaths:
Name: Harriet F Summerbell
Birth Date: abt 1883
Date of Registration: Mar 1967
Age at Death: 84
Registration district: Gateshead
Inferred County: Durham
Volume: 1a
Page: 848

Deaths Jun 1955
SUMMERBELL Alexander 78 Newcastle T. 1b 65

Not seeing a death for Harriet/t. or Frances Summerbell

????
1881 census
1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
35, Liverpool Court, Newcastle upon Tyne St Andrew, Newcastle upon Tyne, Northumberland, England

Learn more

Print transcription View image Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Isabella Wilson Head Widow Female 43 1838 Laundress Newcastle on Tyne, Northumberland, England Transcription
Mary Wilson Daughter Single Female 21 1860 Laundress Newcastle on Tyne, Northumberland, England Transcription
James Wilson Son Single Male 16 1865 Miller (Corn) Newcastle on Tyne, Northumberland, England Transcription
Susan Wilson Daughter Single Female 12 1869 Milk Girl (Seller) Newcastle on Tyne, Northumberland, England Transcription
John Wilson Son Single Male 2 1879 - Newcastle on Tyne, Northumberland, England Transcription
Margaret Wilson Daughter Single Female 3 1878 - Newcastle on Tyne, Northumberland, England Transcription

Isabella Johnson Boarder Widow Female 36 1845 Potato Seller (Greengrocer) Newcastle on Tyne, Northumberland, England>>>>>

Elizabeth Angus Boarder Married Female 21 1860 - Newcastle on Tyne, Northumberland, England Transcription
Thomas Angus Boarder Single Male 0

Looks interesting Gritty

So looks like Harriett was born before they married

No idea if connected:

England & Wales marriages 1837-2008 Transcription

First name(s) JAMES WYNN
Last name WILLIAMS
Marriage quarter 1
Marriage year 1886
MarriageFinder™ JAMES WYNN WILLIAMS married one of these people
MARY ANN ROBINSON, ISABELLA JOHNSON
District NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE
County Northumberland
Volume 10B Page 120

Not seeing them on the 1881 census :-(