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That's very helpful, thank you again Chris, I now understand the assumptions.
Spotting James G Hill -> James G Hill Duffy cleared up that "loose end" too.

I had difficulty finding Mary Hill in the census on Ancestry, but that fortunate misspelling of Isabella found her immediately. I think the word you couldn't read ends in "ware", not "ward", v**nware.

I assume that Hill was her name from her first marriage, so if I need to follow her up at some point I'll need to find her prior marriage.

Keith

Hi Keith,

My research:

Using the freebmd site ( http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl ) there are only two births registered for Robert Duffy's/Duffey's between 1840-1845 in Lancashire


Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Births Sep 1842 (>99%)
Duffy Robert Owen Manchester 20 603

Births Jun 1844 (>99%)
Duffy Robert Alexander Liverpool 20 374

so assuming that Thomas and Frances registered their son Robert I have taken the Robert Owen Duffy entry as their son. (Of course there is no guarantee that they registered Robert's birth as it was not compulsory to do this until 1875).

As I could only see one Robert Duffy born c1842 in Manchester (give or take 5yrs)
in the 1881 census (the one I posted above) and the fact that Thomas, Frances and their family had moved to the Middlesex/London area by 1861 and the fact that Robert was recorded in the 1881 census as an Umbrella Maker, I then looked at the marriage for Robert Duffy and Maria Elizabeth Stone

Details for that marriage:

Place: St Mary's Magdalene Bermondsey
Date: 25/12/1868
Groom: Robert Duffy, full age, Bachelor living Bermondsey occ: Umbrella Maker
Bride: Maria Elizabeth Stone, full age, Spinster, living Bermondsey
Grooms father: Thomas Duffy occ: Umbrella Maker
Brides father: William Pearse Stone occ: City Missionary
Witnesses: William Pearse Stone & Alice Crofts
(All 4 signed their names)

As Robert's father is recorded as THOMAS DUFFY OCC; UMBRELLA MAKER
I concluded that this was Mary Duffy / Taylor/ Peake's brother marrying Maria Elizabeth Stone.




As for the marriage of John Duffy (this looks like the one, (again using the freebmd site)):

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Mar 1872 (>99%)
Blower Charles Alfred Islington 1b 310
Duffy John Islington 1b 310 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hill Mary Islington 1b 310 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
SISSON Elizabeth Ann Islington 1b 310


There is this Mary Hill in the 1871 census:

Address 32 Green Road (the word Newington is recorded above Green Road) Islington

Head: Mary Hill, Widow, aged 36, born Farnham Surrey occ: General Dealer (then a word I could not read but which ended in ward)
Son : George A aged 7
Dau: Iseliala aged 5 (think that this should read Isabella)
Dau: Mary A aged 3
Son: James G aged 1 (all children born Islington)
(and two lodgers)


NOTE THE ADDRESS 32 GREEN ROAD SAME AS THE ADDRESS IN THE 1891 CENSUS

ALSO: the above records a James G Hill aged 1 and in the 1881 census there is a James G Hill Duffy recorded as aged 11

So this looks like Mary Hill prior to her marriage to John Duffy in 1872





As for your Duffy/Duffey query, it's best not to rule any variation in spellings of names or places out, for example while searching a family name of Beesley I have found this name recorded as Rizsley, Blesleys, Beasley and Bezsley.



Looking at the research already done, John Duffy's address:

in 1881, 32 Kennington Green Rd (As Ancestry has recorded)

in 1891 and 1901 Street Newington Green Road (32) (given by Chris Ho ;))


and this marriage (given by me):

Marriage details:

Place: St Jude's Islington
Date: 14th April 1884
Groom: Thomas Edward George Peake, Bachelor, of full age occ: Joiner
Bride: Mary Taylor, Widow, of full age
(Both living at 32 Lewington Green Road)<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Groom's father: Deceased
Bride's father: Thomas Duffy occ: Umbrella Maker
Both bride and groom signed their names
Witnesses: John Duffy and Sarah Smith

It looks like they should all read 32 Newington Green Road Islington.

@Chris 12 Jun 2015 16:04

I can see the umbrella maker connection but feel as if I'm losing the plot :-S

It looks as if you are building up the Duff(e)y family based on Jones as mother's maiden name, is that right? This confirms Chris Ho's post 20 May 2015 19:05 of the 1861 census.

So you're proposing Robert 1842 as a brother of Phillip 1845, Mary 1849, Elizabeth 1851, John 1853, & Emma 1855? The last three being born in Hulme. And Robert married Maria Elizabeth - there's a marriage on Ancestry which matches:

Name: Robert Duffy
Spouse: Maria Elizabeth Stone
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 25 Dec 1868
Parish: St Mary Magdalene, Bermondsey
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: Thomas Duffy
Spouse Father: William Pearse Stone
Register Type: Parish Register

If I've got that (about) right, then I need to collect all the references and any images I can find. But I'd like to be sure I'm on the right track!!

To what extent is it "safe" to ignore the slight differences in spelling Duffy / Duffey?

I've had no luck so far finding John Duffey's marriage to Mary, ABT 1867. Looks as if she might have been married before, there's a Louisa Hill Daughter Single Female 22 1869, or possibly she was just born before their marriage?

Thanks Chris

Keith

@ Chris Ho :) 12 Jun 2015 15:24

Thanks for the timely reminder, Chris! I find I get "locked in" to Ancestry (or whatever) and if what I am looking for is not there then it doesn't exist.

Keith

1842

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1842
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
DUFFY Robert Owen SAINT GEORGE Archives+, Manchester Central Library STG/14/22




This looks like him in the 1881 census:

Name: Robert Duffy
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relationship to Head: Head
Spouse: Maria Duffy
Gender: Male
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Bermondsey
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: No 133 Long Lane
Marital Status: Married
Education:

Employment status:

Subscribe now to see this information.
Occupation: UMBRELLA MAKERr<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Registration district: St Olave Southwark
Sub registration district: Leather Market
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 559
Folio: 16
Page Number: 25
Household Members:
Name Age
Robert Duffy 38
Maria Duffy 34
William Duffy 8
Caroline Duffy 1
Rosetta Duffy




1845

DUFFY Philip DEANSGATE Archives+, Manchester Central Library JONES DEA/20/83 (NOTE MOTHER'S MAIDEN NAME OF JONES)

THERE ARE A COUPLE OF POSSIBILITES FOR MARY BUT NOTE ON THE 1851 CENSUS ELIZABETH WAS RECORDED AS BEING BORN IN HULME AND HER SIBLINGS WERE ALL RECORDED AS BEING BORN IN MANCHESTER


1850

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1850
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
DUFFY Elizabeth HULME Archives+, Manchester Central Library HUL/41/20

So the Hulme reg for John Duffy looks good as he was not on the 1851 census and his birth was registered in the Dec Q 1851

http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/local_bmd

(worth getting familiar with above, sometimes you get Maiden Name of Mother, as Emma below, also, can help with District too, if like me, and not familiar with Lancs., lol, explore all avenues available, I say!)


Births Jun 1855 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------
DUFFY Emma Manchester 8d 236


Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1855
DUFFY Emma Market Street Archives+, Manchester Central Library (Mother Maiden Name) JONES MST/34/32

Chris :)

Thanks Chris.

I agree it's a possible, and I don't have a better suggestion as yet! It's the same parish as Mary.

What are the pros and cons of using the regional BMD sites versus FreeBMD?

Keith

Births Dec 1851 (>99%)
------------------------------------------
Duffy John Chorlton 20 209


Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1851
DUFFY John Hulme Archives+, Manchester Central Library HUL/47/70


(weighing things up using below links, could be above 2)


http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/index.php

Chris :)

@Chris 30 May 2015 13:04

I've now worked through all the entries you found, they all look probable, the umbrella maker link is a nice one.

On the record for the Duffey - Jones marriage, the witnesses are Richard & Edward Place who also appear together in the 1851 census. In the 1881 census there's a Richard Place - umbrella frame maker ... Looks as if the umbrella business was a close-knit community!

Very many thanks again, Chris, that's helped fill in a couple of generations before my maternal grandmother.

Keith

Thank you again Chris.

"Burial details (already posted above, taken from the National Burial Index CD)"

That explains why I couldn't find it!

But why I couldn't find the Ann Marsh burial last night I have no idea, today it comes up as first choice.

Keith

Emily Peake's Death reg: (from Freebmd)

Deaths Jun 1840
PEAKE Emily
Bicester
Volume 16
Page 22

Burial details (already posted above, taken from the National Burial Index CD)

Burial: 1840, Fringford, St Michael, Emily Peake,(nee PAYNE), aged 44


Ann Marsh's Death reg: (from Freebmd)

Deaths Jun 1848
Marsh Ann
Islington
Volume 3
Page 195

actual burial details (as posted above already which was from Ancestry):


Burial for ANN MARSH

Place:St Mary's Islington
Date: 18th June 1848
Name: Ann Marsh
Age: 52
Abode: Half Moon Crescent

@Chris 29 May 2015 18:52
All of that seems to fit perfectly, thanks again Chris. The two baptism records for Elizabeth & John also include their early deaths, that's the first time I've seen that. This explains why they were absent from the census records of course.

@Chris 29 May 2015 19:14
I'm having problems finding the burial for Ann Marsh, the only one that comes up is Mary Ann Marsh in Northampton which seems unlikely.
Similarly I can't find the burial for Emily Payne / Peake.
I've tried contacting Margaret as you suggested, thank you for the pointer. I haven't heard from her yet but a couple of other people have chipped in to help. I've also found the Oxfordshire Family History Society which might be able to help.

Thanks again for your help, Chris. I'll continue the search tomorrow!

@Chris Ho :) 4 Jun 2015 08:03
Thanks Chris. John Duffey shows up in the 1861 census, 8 yo, on Ancestry:

Name: Thomas Duffey
Age: 41
Estimated Birth Year: 1820
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Frances Duffey
Gender: Male
Where born: Manchester
Civil Parish: Bethnal Green
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

View image
Registration district: Bethnal Green
Sub-registration district: Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 238
Piece: 261
Folio: 62
Page Number: 39
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Duffey 41
Frances Duffey 38
Robert Duffey 17
Mary Duffey 12
Elizabeth Duffey 10
John Duffey 8
Emma Duffey 6

Looks as if there might be a mis-transcription on FMP? Looking at the original, it looks like "John" followed by "ina" written in another hand, but the relationship to the head is "dau"!! How on earth can you correct that!!

Keith

Needs further investigation Keith, that one!..

Chris :)

1851 (Find My Past)
Thomas Duffey Head Married Male 32 1819 Umbrella Maker Manchester, Lancashire, England
Frances Duffey Wife Married Female 28 1823 Umberlla Maker Wife Salford, England
Robert Duffey Son Unmarried Male 8 1843 Scholar Manchester, Lancashire, England
Philip Duffey Son Unmarried Male 6 1845 Scholar Manchester, Lancashire, England
Mary Duffey Daughter Unmarried Female 2 1849 - Manchester, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth - Daughter Unmarried Female 0 1851 - Hulme
Street Hamilton Street
Parish Hulme
City Manchester
County Lancashire
Parliamentary borough Manchester
Municipal ward Saint Georges Ward
Registration district Chorlton
Archive reference HO107
Piece number 2221
Folio 547
Page 26

@Chris Ho 20 May 2015 19:05
This looks like the right family (umbrella maker), but what do you make of the fact that John Duffey is missing? He would have been about 10 at the time?

@Chris 29 May 2015 18:52
Thank you again for doing these searches. I'm about a third of the way through and about to pack up for the night. I looked for this:
"but Mary has been recorded as Margaret. (someone has notified Ancestry of this and a note has been made by Margaret's name)"
but could not find the note. Maybe it's simply that it's late!

Edit: Ah, now I've found the comment about Margaret -> Mary A, it doesn't show up if you search for Thomas but it does if you search for Margaret. Thanks for spotting that, Chris.

Keith

Arrived home to find two birth certificates waiting for me (that was quick!): Margaret Peake 1885 and Thomas Edward George Peake 1889. Both show the father as Thomas Edward George Peake, 121 Virginia Road, Bethnal Green.
Given that the name given for the father of "my" Margaret on her marriage certificate was Thomas Edward George Peake it seems highly probable that it's the right family.
The father's occupation on the marriage certificate (1910) was provision merchant, his occupation on the birth certificates was joiner.
The birth certificates give the mother as Mary Peake, late Taylor, formerly Duffey, which supports the conclusions reached by Jacqueline and Karin. Thank you for putting me on the right path.
Now to sort through the references Chis has found for me ...
Keith

Baptism found on Ancestry as was all other info.

A possible marriage for George Peake (from familysearch.org)

Name: George Peake
Spouse's Name: Emily Payne
Event Date: 29 Aug 1814
Event Place: Mixbury,Oxford,England

and a possible child for Emily Payne just before the marriage:


Emily Payne
mentioned in the record of Mary Anne Payne
Name: Emily Payne
Gender:
Female
Daughter: Mary Anne Payne
Other information in the record of Mary Anne Payne
from England Births and Christenings
Name: Mary Anne Payne
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 17 Jun 1814
Christening Place: MIXBURY,OXFORD,ENGLAND
Mother's Name: Emily Payne



Bapt for Emily Payne:

Emily Payne
England Births and Christenings
Name: Emily Payne
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 15 Apr 1796
Christening Place: MIXBURY,OXFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name: James Payne
Mother's Name: Mary


Burial: 1840, Fringford, St Michael, Emily Peake,(nee PAYNE), aged 44



There is a lady named Margaret on here that offers lookups in Oxfordshire that might be able to help you find a baptism for Thomas Peake born c1822 son of George (& possibly Emily ) I don't know if she is still offering her services though as the last posting was in January but it might be worth a try, here's the link

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1086522?page=66



A possible marriage for Thomas Duffy

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1842
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
DUFFY Thomas JONES Frances Manchester Collegiate Church (later Manchester Cathedral) Archives+, Manchester Central Library CATH/25/362

found here:

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/marriages.php

EDIT:
This marriage is also on Ancestry: (NOTE DIFFERENT GROOMS OCC, Thomas may have had a change of occupation or this might not be the right marriage for your Thomas and Frances although the time and place fit and I can't seen any other marriages)

Date: 19th May 1842

Place:Parish Church of Manchester (ST Mary, St Denys and St George)

Groom: Thomas Duffy, Full Age, Bachelor, Occ: Picture Frame Maker,
Address: 58 Thompson Street

Bride: Frances Jones, Full Age, Spinster, Address: Balloon Street

Grooms Father: Philip Duffy, occ: Dyer

Brides Father: John Jones, occ: Painter

Witnesses: Richard & Edward Place

Thomas signed his name, Frances made her mark X



A possible marriage for Philip Duffy/Duffey (same church as above)

Date: 29th April 1816

Groom Philip Duffey occ: Dyer

Bride: Mary Wood

Philip signed his name Mary made her mark X


Can't see a bapt for Thomas Duffy/Duffey with father Philip but there is a bapt for a William Duffy (same Church) on 1/12/1816 parents Philip and Mary Duffy, fathers occ: Dyer.

AND

in the 1841 census:

Address: Cromwell St Salford Manchester

William Duffy, aged 24, Labourer*************

Thomas Duffy, aged 21, Umbrella Maker

*******************So possibly the William baptised in 1816 above


The only bapt I can see for a Frances Jones is this one (again the same church):

18th November 1821

Frances daughter of John and Elizabeth Jones of Salford

Fathers occ: Dyer


This looks like Frances in the 1841 census:


Name: Francis Jones
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821
Gender: ***********************************FEMALE
Where born: Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Manchester
Hundred: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

View image
Registration district: Manchester
Sub-registration district: Market Street
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 573
Book: 7
Folio: 16
Page Number: 26
Household Members:
Name Age
William Hewitt 40
James Hewitt 10
Francis Jones 20 ****************OCC; UMBRELLA MAKER

This is the same Frances as the one on the marriage cert, I've just looked at it again and the address is Balloon Street. Looking at the fact that this Frances was an umbrella maker maybe that's how she met Thomas Duffy.

That's really valuable, Chris, thank you for making the time to hunt for these. You make it look very easy ;-)

I'm going to need to chart this and look at the sources (as before) when I get back to base. Meanwhile, please can you say where you found the record of the Hackney baptism for Thomas George Edward Peake?

Keith

Now for Mary Ann:

Place: Islington Middlesex
Name:Mary Ann Marsh
born: 24th Dec 1828
Bapt: 1st Feb 1829
Parents: Edward & Ann Marsh of Bride St Islington
Father's Occ: Watchmaker

1841 census:

Address: Half Moon Crescent Islington

Edward Marsh aged 45 Occ: Watchmaker
Ann aged 40
Charles aged 21
Elizabeth aged 20
Margaret aged 15
Esther aged 15
Mary Ann aged 12
Lydia aged 10
Caroline aged 9
Edward aged 6
Ruth aged 4
Emma aged 2
Eliza aged 2 (Emma and Eliza were twins)

Parents were not born in County of Middlesex but all children were.



1851 census:

16 Half Moon Crescent

Head: Edward Marsh Widower aged 56 born Prestor Lancashire (Think this may have been Precot Lancashire) Occ: Watch Hands Maker
Dau: Margaret aged 25 born Clerkenwell Middlesex
Dau: Lydia aged 19
Dau: Caroline aged 16
Dau: Ruth aged 14 All born Islington
Dau: Emma aged 11
Dau: Eliza aged 11


Burial for ANN MARSH

Place:t Mary's Islington
Date: 18th June 1848
Name: Ann Marsh
Age: 52
Abode: Half Moon Crescent


Probate: Wills 1860

Marsh Edward, Effects under £800

18th October 1860 The will of Edward Marsh late of Gloucester-street Clerkenwell in the County of Middlesex
Dealer in Watchmaker's Tools deceased who died on 15/8/1860 at Gloucester-street aforesaid was proved at the Principal Registry by oath of Lydia Marsh of Gloucester Street aforesaid Spinster the daughter and the sole Executrix


Possible marriage:

Prescot Lancashire on 5th May 1822
Edward Marsh (Colliers Bachelor)
Ann White (Spinster)

Hi Keith,

This looks like the bapt you mention in your 1st post:

Hackney Middlesex

Reported born 9th Dec 1851 bapt 7th March 1852 Thomas George Edward Peake
son of Thomas and Mary Ann Peake of Morning Lane, father's occ: Carpenter

Note that the second and third name have been changed around.

Think this birth was registered as Thomas George Edward Peak in Mar Q 1852 in Hackney volume 1b page 276

The 1871 and 1881 census that I posted looks to be the right family and the 1861 census that you posted with mother as Margaret looks to be the same family but Mary has been recorded as Margaret. (someone has notified Ancestry of this and a note has been made by Margaret's name)

Here they are in 1851 census:

Address: Grove Passage Hackney
Head: Thomas Peak (without the e) aged 28 born Heath Oxfordshire occ: Carpenter
Wife: Mary Peak aged 22 born Islington Middlesex
Dau: Margaret Peak aged 8months born Hackney



This looks like the marriage for Thomas and Mary Ann

Place:St Mary's Islington Middlesex

Date: 14th Oct 1849

Groom: Thomas Peake (full age) Bachelor occ: Surveyor

Bride: Mary Ann Marsh (Minor) Spinster

Both of: 16 Half Moon Crescent

Groom's father: George Peake occ: Builder

Bride's father: Edward Marsh occ: Watchmaker

Witnesses: Edward Marsh and Sarah Peake

All signed their names

As Thomas was recorded in the 1851 census as being born in Heath Oxfordshire
I looked for a bapt in Oxfordshire and could not find one for him.

I did find this Thomas in the 1841 census with a father George that looks promising:

1841 census:

Fringford Villiage
Oxfordshire

George Peake aged 45 Publican
Mary Peake aged 20
Thomas Peake aged 14
John Peake aged 8
Catherine Peake aged 6


The same family in 1851 census: (NOTE THE CHANGE OF OCC FOR GEORGE
SAME AS ON THE MARRIAGE IN 1849 FOR THOMAS AND MARY)

Address: Heath House Heath Oxfordshire (note Heath where Thomas was recorded as being born in the 1851 census)

Head: George Peake aged 56 widower occ: BUILDER born Fringford Oxfordshire
Dau: Harriet Peake aged 30 born Heath Oxfordshire
Dau: Catherine Peake aged 16 born Heath Oxfordshire.

There was a bapt for a Harriet Peake in Fringford 24th Dec 1820 parents George and Emily Peake which could be the Harriet above and also:

Elizabeth 23/6/1816
John 26/10/1817
Sarah 27/12/1818


This looks like George in the1861 census

Heath Oxfordshire

Head: George Peake aged 66 born Fringford Oxfordshire Occ: Carpenter
Wife: Clara Peake aged 51 born St Luke's Chelsea Middlesex Occ: School Mistress


Possible marriage:

Date: 6/9/1853
Place: St Martin in the Field Westminster Middlesex
Clara Deschlein
George Peake

Thanks Chris and Chris

I'm going to have to look at the census documents to see what I can make of them, thank you for the pointers. As an aside, I find it strange that sometimes these records don't show up in searches although the information they contain match the search terms.

I'm now going to be away for 10 days and in that time I'll only be able to pick this up sporadically (if at all). Thank you for all your help so far and I hope we can pick where we left off when I get back.

Keith