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Hi Joonie,

I don't think the Thomas J with the father James & mother Theresa would be mine because we have no Theresa in the family and they usually use the mothers name some where don't they,we do have a lot of Thomas's & James though.

I have sent for the death cert for Bridget ...Father Thomas....Mother Bridget.

This should give me the names of the children on it, is that right.
So I'll see if they match hopefully they do.
Cheryl.

yup, ordinarily an NSW death certificate will have spouse's and children's names on it as well as parents', so fingers crossed

of course even if it is her, the 'father Thomas mother Bridget' could always have been just somebody's guess at the time based on her and her brother's names ... :-(

oh wait, you misunderstood me

the two deaths I mentioned



802/1881 SHEEHAN BRIDGET
father UNKNOWN
mother UNKNOWN
SYDNEY

that death would certainly fit with an over-60 immigrant Bridget

2040/1880 SHEEHAN THOMAS J
father JAMES
mother THERESA
SYDNEY

and that death would fit with the name James travelling down the generations



... I was suggesting those as possible deaths of the parents of your Thomas and his sister Bridget ... if their parents were indeed Thomas and Bridget ... not as the death of your Thomas himself

which would mean James and Theresa would be your Thomas's grandparents and he might not even have known their names


but just casting about and surmising and looking for what might come next :-)

Oh ok I think I see where you are now,even if it is Thomas's grand parents you would still think a Theresa would be down the line some where.

I have just had my daughter send for Bridget's death cert for 1899,the date of her last child born was 1874,so I'm hoping that the 1899 one is it.
It should be here tomorrow wednesday at the latest.
Cheryl.

another tidbit, Mary Ann's parents' marriage


222/1845 V1845222 94
VENABLES WILLIAM
ROGERS BRIDGET
LI (Liverpool)


so Thomas's and Mary Ann's first two children were William and Thomas ... her father and his father possibly?

they only had three girls with only two names between them ... Mary 1877, Bridget 1882, and Mary Bridget 1883


if the Thomas and Bridget Sheehan who died in 1880 and 1881 were your Thomas's parents ... they died before the last two or the last three of Thomas's and Mary Ann's children were born (as I suggested, Thomas may not have known his grandmother's name), and Thomas and Mary Ann did seem to want their daughters named Mary/Bridget! (I would think maybe the first Mary and Bridget daughters had died, although I don't see death records)


anyway, breath bated for that certificate, it's just fun to speculate and see how it comes out :-)

Hi Joonie,

I have a list of Thomas & Mary Ann's Children:

William born 1867 Died: 1903
Thomas Born 1869 Died 1922
John Born 1871 Died 1911
Joseph Henry Born 1876 Died 1887
Mary Gertrude Born 1877 Died 1948 She was also known as Tot.
James T. Born 1879 Died 1933 My great grandfather.
Honora Born 1880
Charles Michael born 1881 Died 1919 ( There is a story to Charles but
not sure how it goes now,but he is the
reason his mother took her own life.)
Bridget Born 1882
Mary Bridget Born 1883
Margaret Born 1887
& Foster daughter Nina Born 1903 Died 1994.

So they had a few children.

How did you find Mary Ann's parents I have the marriage cert and theres nothing there, so thank you for that.
Cheryl.

Since we are pretty sure Mary Ann's mother was Bridget, this is her mother's death record

1461/1890
VENABLES BRIDGET
father UNKNOWN RODGERS
mother UNKNOWN
SYDNEY

so Bridget mother of Mary Ann was born Rodgers

which gives us this 1845 marriage

222/1845 V1845222 94
VENABLES WILLIAM
ROGERS BRIDGET
LI (Liverpool)

which fits with Mary Ann being underage when she married in 1865

2332/1865
SHEEHAN THOMAS
VENABLES MARY A
LIVERPOOL

and since Bridget Venables gave consent, we suspect her husband William was deceased by 1865

4199/1860
VENABLES WILLIAM
AGE 55 YEARS
DIED LIVERPOOL
LIVERPOOL

so it all fits together :-)

The only births that show for Bridget and William Venables are
Elizabeth 1846
Elizabeth 1846 (shown as Venkeles)
William 1846
William 1846 (mother shown as Brigid)
William H 1849
(looks like duplicates with name variants for the first two children)

I wonder whether Mary Ann's birth record got strangely messed up
(there is no other record for this surname!)

3166/1847 V18473166 64
NIPLES
MARY A
father WILLIAM
mother BRIDGET
(no district shown in index)


How sad about Mary Ann's death, I wonder whether Charles was in WWI and his own death was connected with that experience ...

Hi Joonie,

I have William & his mother Mary Ann's story all up side down,I just found some paper work from Leonie Nina's granddaughter.

Told by Nina ,Mary Ann died 13.6.1919 because when her son Charles
came back from WW1 he took his life by hanging himself off the banister and the shock ended up killing poor Mary Ann,very sad.
Cheryl. :-(

Silly me its Charles not William.

that was what I feared for Charles ... those who survived that awful war often did not thrive ...

Hi Joonie,
Yes very sad,I have an uncle he is Thomas great grandson and he was in Vietnam and still today he struggles with it but he has a great wife and she makes sure he gets help when he needs it.

Well now I have the certs I was after so Here goes:

Marriage for Bridget & Frederick Fry

Bridget Sheehan,
Spinster,
Place of birth
County Clare,Ireland
Servant
aged 21
Father Thomas Sheahan ( not spelt the same as the rest of the family)
Mother Bridget Nunan

Frederick Hansford Fry
Bachlor
Place of birth Dorsetshire England
Baker
aged 26
Father Richard Fry
Mother Anna Crocker.
----------------------------------------------------------

Bridget Mary Fry ( not Margaret)

Date of death: 20 July 1899
1 Foster Street ??
Widow
aged 60yrs
Father Thomas Sheehan (spelt our way)
Mother Bridgdet Noonan ( spelt different on marriage cert)
All the names of the children are there that I have.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mary Ann Sheehan

Date of death 15 June 1919
Place: 95 Kippax Street
Aged : 71yrs
Father: -- Venables
Mother: not listed

It has her Children listed as Thomas,James,Mary Brown,Frederick & 7 males deceased.
Cheryl

It's Foster Street alright ... that's where Bridget Fry is listed in the 1890s in the Sands directories ... greengrocer, 1 Foster St

so that's two docs giving Bridget's parents as Thomas and Bridget (Noonan would be the usual spelling I think)

one of them being when she was young and as reported by herself so presumably reliable ... any useful witnesses on Bridget's marriage certificate?


Mary Ann Venables Sheehan's death certificate doesn't name her husband / specify whether she was a widow?



now we just need these certificates :-D


802/1881 SHEEHAN BRIDGET
father UNKNOWN
mother UNKNOWN
SYDNEY

to see whether that is Thomas's mother


2040/1880 SHEEHAN THOMAS J
father JAMES
mother THERESA
SYDNEY

to see whether that is Thomas's father


8073/1899 SHEEHAN THOMAS
father THOMAS
mother BRIDGET
SYDNEY

to see whether that is Thomas!

Hi Joonie,

It has spouse and yes Thomas's name is there,nothing about widow.

Joonie what is the Sand Directories.

Cheryl

Sands directories were published in the Sydney area from the latish 19th century onward, they're a city directory that I think shows heads of households and business owners

Bridget Fry shows through the 1890s as a greengrocer -- starting in 1883

in 1879 there is Frederick Fry at 33 Foster St, a baker


those dates would fit with this possible death for Frederick, although the initials are a bit off

535/1882 FRY FREDERICK R
father RICHARD S
mother UNKNOWN
SYDNEY

Frederic Hansford Fry's baptism for confirmation, 1830 Dorset, parents Richard and Hannah
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NBPB-S4K


Anyhow Sands is where I was finding the stuff about the gang of Sheehans in that place that starts with a J :-)

not knowing the geography is a bit of a hindrance!


anyhow, too bad Mary Ann's death cert doesn't specify spouse living or deceased ... I don't know whether it would normally do that

I also saw that entry and also wonder if that was Frederick.
Thanks for the Christening link.

Never mind I have his parents off Bridget's death cert so I will try and go down that road.

Thank you ever so much for all your wonderful help I would have given up on looking for Thomas's mother & father,but thanks to good old Bridget I have them.

I tell you they needed to find different names back then so you identify them,instead of Thomas,James & James Thomas's. lol.
Thanks again.
Cheryl.

now we still haven't answered your original question!

although yes, Bridget seems to have been pretty certain about who her parents were

but once your bank account recovers I'd still like to see those death certificates ...

802/1881 SHEEHAN BRIDGET
father UNKNOWN
mother UNKNOWN
SYDNEY

to see whether that is Thomas's mother

2040/1880 SHEEHAN THOMAS J
father JAMES
mother THERESA
SYDNEY

to see whether that is Thomas's father


it would just wrap things up neatly ... and then maybe that other death certificate

8073/1899 SHEEHAN THOMAS
father THOMAS
mother BRIDGET
SYDNEY

just to see whether it can be ruled in or out as your thomas


by the way all these expensive certificates ... there are transcription services that give you all the info for half the price

there are three listed at the bottom of the page here

http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh.html


people sometimes balk at the idea of tracking ancestors' siblings if they aren't interested in them but here's an example of how a sibling can lead to the info, you just have to think in two or three dimensions instead of a straight line :-D

those names ... I have one family that is nothing but James and William, two that have Samuels swarming everywhere, cousins and brothers and fathers for two centuries, and another clan that is nothing but Thomas and Richard, which sounds better except when every generation has more than one! My own generation got our grandparents' names as middle names which I think is much more sensible ... even though mine was a grandmother's altered slightly for tastes, my little sister got what everybody thought was the other grandmother's name but it wasn't quite, one brother got what a grandfather thought was his name but it wasn't ... and the other brother actually managed to end up with the other grandfather's correct name (not that the grandfather hadn't used his own father's name after he got booted out of the military at a young age and turned around and re-enlisted, I've discovered) ... ! Close enough, though, that they will provide clues should anybody ever need them, without driving them crazy :-)

I have them written down and as you say as soon as my bank is full again I will be after them LOL.

Yes that what I go through a joy Murrin for all my certs.

Lol yeh the parents really needed to think first them write their childrens names so all the spellings where right.

Joonie are you in Australia?

Cheryl

Hi Joonie,

Have you ever had the D N A test done that helps with finding family,if so does it really work ?
Cheryl

No, not in Australia, just a real night owl, so we pass in the night/day :-) I do have to get away from this keyboard now though!

yes, funny you should ask, I have indeed done DNA testing and was just talking about it ... here

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1349122

I found family all right ... just not remotely the family I was expecting to find, but it sure has created a new mystery where there was already quite enough! I had unbelievable good luck ... someone who is related with a common ancestor probably born sometime around 1500 tested just before I had my male rellie tested, and we matched ... although there probably aren't even a couple of hundred men in the world who would be that close a match for my rellie

(my male rellie is one of maybe 10 sons of 4 sons of a man born c1850 whose father had no other male descendants, and who was himself the only surviving son of his own father born c1820 about whose father I know nothing ... my rellie and his match are apparently both from a small clan in a small area of Cornwall)

FTDNA which is the best company to use has a Sheehan project, but for some reason it has no information about itself (or place for a request to join), just the results table ... it seems to be a private sort of affair for closely related people, I don't know ... or maybe just inactive now

okay, here we go, they're still using the old system

https://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Sheehan

http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/sheehan/

http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/sheehan/pats

nobody from County Clare, it seems ...


ask me anything, and I'll answer when I'm awake :-)

Hi Joonie,

I wasn't thinking of doing the DNA test for the Sheehan's but for my other side the Lamont's I can not find where my great grandfather died but thats another time for that family.

Thank you for answering my question,I read every thing and I'll have to talk to my uncle he is a Sheehan/Lamont so we might be able to find the rest of the Lamont clan.