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Hi Everyone,
I am looking to find my great great grandfathers mother & father's names,I know he was born about 1849 in County Clare Ireland,and at some stage came to Australia and married Mary Ann Venables.
Now the thing is on their marriage certificate there is no parents for either of them or dates of births or their ages.
Can anyone tell me how I go on from here please as there are so many Thomas Sheehans out there and we have a few in the family to.
Thank you
Cheryl.

you are probably going to end up just plain stuck, Cheryl

without something to cross-reference to an earlier record ... a parent's name, an exact date of birth ... you would have no way of knowing what Thomas might be yours of any you found ...

sometimes you can see clues in children's names to what the couple's parents' names might have been

if you knew Mary Ann's parents' names, and if some of the children were named for them, you might suspect others were named for Thomas's, for instance

presumably their death records have no more information

is there any indication that either of them had siblings in Australia?

Hi Joonie Cloonie,
Yes I thought I might it be the end of the line with Thomas as his son was named James Thomas his son my grand father was named James Thomas and his son my uncle also named James its just goes on.

I do have a Bridget Sheehan but not sure if it is Thomas's sister.

I'm not sure about Thomas's death cert I have one but it does not have any information about him once again.

Mary Ann I'm not to worried about at the moment I'm just trying to go down the Sheehan side.

Thank you for your help any way I will try with Bridget but not sure where that will take me either.
Cheryl.

Cheryl...Looking at the year the marriage took place may help determine roughly when Thomas arrived in Australia...does the MC give names of witnesses..?
Where in Australia did the couple marry and how do you know he came from the Co.Clare..?

Hi,
The year they got married was1865 Cabramatta,Liverpool,NSW Australia and witnesses were Samuel Marshall & Anne Finnegan.

it also has comments: The groom signed with his mark,Mrs B Venables gave consent to the marriage of the bride.
This could be Mary Ann's mother but I don't know.
I have my great grandfathers birth certificate and it has Thomas at the age of 38 and born County Clare,Ireland .
Cheryl

Hi,
just reading my last post my great grandfather's name was James his father is Thomas.

found this from 2007
http://www.familytreecircles.com/looking-for-thomas-sheehan-mary-ann-venables-married-1865-sydney-nsw-australia-10045.html

any use ?

Hi Quoy,
Thank you but I have already been in touch with the lady that owns that and she has no idea either we have just stopped at Thomas.
Thanks again.
Cheryl.

When was your gt grandfather born. If Thomas was born in 1849, that would only make him 16 when he married in 1865.

for info (Cheryl it is best to provide 'all the facts, ma'am" so that everybody knows as much as you do)

https://familyhistory.bdm.nsw.gov.au/lifelink/familyhistory/search?1

marriage

2332/1865
SHEEHAN THOMAS
VENABLES MARY A
LIVERPOOL

birth

395/1879
SHEEHAN JAMES
father THOMAS
mother MARY ANNE
SYDNEY

it sounds as if they were both very young but only Mary Anne had a parent who could give consent

teenage marriage in Australia during that era was quite common, I believe ... kind of like the wild west in the US, people needed family units to make a life and it gave a community more stability than having unmarried youths wandering around :-)

If this is his death, won't the certificate have his parents name listed?



Name:Thomas Sheehan

Death Date:1892

Death Place:New South Wales

Registration Year:1892

Registration Place:Liverpool, New South Wales

Registration Number:7427


Edit: Sorry missed your comments above

and Mary Ann's death

5078/1919
SHEEHAN MARY A
father (VENABLES)
71 YRS SYDNEY
SYDNEY

makes her dob 1847-48


and just for info, Mary Ann's mother's death

1461/1890
VENABLES BRIDGET
father UNKNOWN RODGERS
mother UNKNOWN
SYDNEY

Hi Potty,
Yes I have the birth year wrong for Thomas,I have his son's my great grandfathers birth cert and Thomas was 38 yrs old so that would make him born about 1841 and born in County Clare,and Mary Ann was 30 yrs old born Castlereagh,NSW and makes her born in 1849.
James the son was born 1879.
I'm sorry I didn't put all the right info in.

I do have a death cert for Thomas but I am not sure if it is his,as when I sent for it they sent me the wrong one and when I sent it back the gentleman that wrote back to me said he checked what he could and thought that the one I have was the nearest to the birth date and there are no parents no information at all really.
All I have on it is his age at death which is 90yrs and where he was buried in Young NSW. in 1936.
Cheryl

does Mary Anne's 1919 death certificate say whether she was a widow or name her husband?

since James was born in Sydney in 1879 and she died there in 1919, one might suspect that is where Thomas died too

the old registration districts in NSW are a big puzzle, I gather from some googling - nobody seems to know what locales were included in which districts, when ... when you say in Young NSW, is that the death shown as being in Goulburn district in 1936?

19400/1936
SHEEHAN THOMAS
RICHARD
CATHERINE
GOULBURN

... presumably not as that gives father's and mother's names ... but I don't see another Thomas Sheehan death reg in NSW in 1936


births to the couple (guessing by where the mother shows as Mary A or Mary Ann(e)) seem to be possibly

1867 William in Redfern
1869 Thomas in Sydney
1871 John in Redfern
1876 Joseph Henry in Sydney
1877 Mary in Sydney
1879 James in Sydney
1881 Charles Michael in Sydney
1882 Bridget in Sydney
1883 Mary Bridget in Sydney

but not necessarily all of those I guess

in any case though it seems they were settled in Sydney ... but if Thomas did outlive Mary by a lot perhaps he went to live elsewhere with a child

if he had lived to 1936 though, would that not have been within living memory of people now living or fairly recently deceased?


modern NSW electoral rolls at Ancestry start only in 1930 ...

in 1930 there were 4 plain Thomas Sheehan-s in NSW

Thomas Sheehan - district Hume subdistrict Adelong
- a teacher with wife Elsie
Thomas Sheehan district Hume subdistrict Cootamundra
- a labourer with address Jugiong, several other Sheehans also at that address
Thomas Sheehan district Richmond subdistrict Woodburn South
- a farmer with address East Coraki, where there are also a James, farmer, and Ellen, home duties
Thomas Sheehan district Cook subdistrict Newtown
- an engine-driver with address 14 Juliett St, living with Annie Josephine, home duties

this is your James's death

5204/1933 SHEEHAN JAMES T
father THOMAS
mother MARY A
SYDNEY

... so he could possibly have predeceased Thomas ...


in the Sands directories, there is a Thomas Sheehan in Redfern in 1868, 1870, 1871 ... coinciding with the Redfern births in the list above ... and one or two other Thomas Sheehans


these are just musings ... but maybe if we knew a little more about your James and the other children of Thomas and Mary Ann, maybe Thomas's occupation, we could try to figure out where Thomas may have ended up, from electoral rolls or the Sand directories?

one idea specifically, the address on Mary Ann's death certificate? ... to see whether Thomas was at that address in the Sands directory around the year she died

I now see a Mrs Mary Ann Sheehan in the directory, so head of household (women are listed only if no husband in household), 1916-1919 ... 95 Kippax Street in those years ... ? she does not seem to appear after that ... could this be Mary Ann who died in 1919?

Mrs Mary A Sheehan at that address in 1911 ... and 1906 ... that name first appears in 1906, it seems, although she could be Mrs M before that, for instance ...

if that was your Mary Ann, then it would seem Thomas was deceased before 1906 at least

if there were no parents' names on his marriage certificate, suggesting he did not know them, I wonder whether this might not be his death:

7427/1892
SHEEHAN THOMAS
father UNKNOWN
mother UNKNOWN
LIVERPOOL


it's interesting that on the 1850s electoral rolls in NSW there were Cornelius, Maurice, Thomas and Patrick Sheehan ... and Thomas Sheehan deaths 1890 to 1910 show Thomas-s with each of those fathers ...

Hi Joonie,
I just had a look on BDM for Thomas and it has it there but where the parents names should be it gives his age of 90yrs then Young.

You have been busy and I thank you, yes those names are the children.

I have just checked the death cert again and in the burial part it has 25th october 1936 Roman Catholic Cemetery Jugiong,but the informant has Mount St; Joseph's old peoples home Young,and it has him as a labourer,it also has him as a labourer on his marriage cert.+

Redfern & Sydney was our home town when I was young.

Yes James T is my great grandfather.
The worse thing about all this is my grandfathers name was also James Thomas I wish they new other names lol.
My great Grandfather's wifes name was Annie but her second name was Louisa.

Just checked and the one death cert I don't have is Mary Annes so I will be getting that one then I'll know if she was a widow or not.
Kippax Street was one of the places my family has spoken about and Mary Ann did die in 1919 she killed herself.

I was in touch with a lady a couple of years ago and she was the granddaughter of a foster child that Thomas and Mary Anne took in and she (Nina) was born 1903. So if he died around 1906 she was bring up the child on her own.
I hope I haven't forgotten any thing.
Thank you
Cheryl.

Ah, the Jugiong gang - yes, there were a bunch of them in Jugiong and none of the names matched your gang, unless they were two generations from Thomas, say.

So since Mary Ann is listed in the Sands directory in 1906 on Kippax Street, you can be fairly sure that Thomas was deceased by then, or he would have been the name in the listing ... inless they were living separately, which would seem unlikely.

Interesting about the foster child, yes, that could narrow the time frame. You spoke with somebody born in 1903?! that was exceptionally lucky!

I have no idea why that 1936 death wasn't coming up for me before ...

22484/1936
SHEEHAN THOMAS
father 9O YRS YOUNG (I think somebody confused age and district!)
mother
YOUNG

however ... 1910 to 1916 shows a Mrs MA Sheehan in Jugiong, at the Jugiong Hotel

coinciding somewhat with the years that name does not appear on Kippax St

there were a lot of hotels in Jugiong! just in the columns alongside her listing there are the Grapes Inn Hotel, Federal Hotel, Royal Mail Hotel, Thurlow's Hotel, Peter's Hotel, Criterion Hotel, Australian Hotel, Commercial Hotel ... and many more ... the listings seem to be for the people who are the proprietors of the hotels

... so possibly if she was the proprietor it was she who would be listed and not her husband, even if he was living ... so he could well have been there with her, and returned there after she died

the Thomas in Jugiong is there in 1930 and 1936 only

on the 1930 ER in Jugiong there are Sheehans:

Arthur Edward, labourer
Arthur Edward, labourer (duplicate or Sr and Jr?)
Evelyn Jane, home duties
John, farmer
Margaret, home duties
Roy Denis, labourer
Thomas, labourer

in 1936 there are the two Arthur Edwards, labourers, and Margaret, home duties, and Thomas, labourer

so the death cert would seem to be the Thomas who died there, whoever he was

and - keep in mind that '90' on that cert is very probably a rounded age, reported by a child or grandchild, or estimated by someone else, who had no idea when the person was born

if those names mean anything, that could connect your Thomas with that death cert

Sands shows only two Sheehans in Jugiong 1926-1946: D (Dennis I would think) 1926-1933 and John 1926 only ... although in 1932-33 the Gundagai listings show a J in Brawlin.

one other thing - do you know Nina's surname and whether / when / where she married? again that could connect Thomas to a location after Mary Ann's death ...


Mary Ann's death cert may hold a good clue though so it will be interesting to see

Hi Joonie,

None of those names fit with my Sheehan family,so I think the guy that sent me the death cert gave me the wrong one.

Nina's maiden name was Williamson and she married a William F Hope at Woollahra in 1931.

Also I was just reading nina's granddaughters entry and I forgot that Thomas had a sister here too, her name was Bridget and I just had a look for marriage and Sheehan was spelt wrong it had an A in it Sheahan,she married a Frederick H Fry in 1858 Sydney,so theres another cert I can get,and hopefully she has her parents on there.

I want to thank you Joonie for taking the time to help me.
Cheryl.

That is the Nina I suspected :-)

her birth was actually registered under her mother's name (marriage under both surnames) ... 1904 in Sydney

so that was just to get another indication of where Thomas and Mary Ann would have been at that time

I'm not ruling out the Jugiong Thomas death, since a Mrs MA Sheehan was indeed there during the years Mary Ann was not shown on Kippax St


for Bridget ... there are two possible deaths

8135/1899 FRY BRIDGET M
father THOMAS
mother BRIDGET
SYDNEY

14351/1901 FRY BRIDGET
no father, no mother
MORUYA

the only death for a Frederick H Fry specifically was 1915 in Sutherland so that's no great help

if your Bridget was Bridget M, the question would be whether those parents' names are accurate! but they would sure make sense for children named Thomas and Bridget


both of those Bridgets died before electoral rolls are available ... likely her husband did too


you're very welcome, trying to think of all the possible ways to approach a puzzle is always good exercise :-)

it will be interesting to see what the certificates say

Hi Joonie,

Bridget Fry's name was Margaret Bridget I have her born abt 1838 County Clare,Irleland and don't ask me how I got it but I have her deceased 1901 nsw.

I have been on this computer all day have done no work in house just on here trying to find people on bdm but not having much luck but will keep trying.

I'll try and get the Bridget Fry that is in Sydney her death cert to because all the family I have been trying to look up today are around Redfern and Sydney.

My family had one house in Redfern they all went to and that was my mothers and grandmothers same house.
Well I'll keep trying tomorrow.
Cheryl.

fingers crossed the 1901 death date for Bridget was a guess/assumption!

I wrote the below late last night (before you posted the above) and then somehow managed to wander off and not click submit, so here it is now

*********

up late, feeling obsessive ... :-)


it being very probable that if your Thomas had a sister who lived in Australia, his parents were also there ...


802/1881 SHEEHAN BRIDGET
father UNKNOWN
mother UNKNOWN
SYDNEY

that death would certainly fit with an over-60 immigrant Bridget


2040/1880 SHEEHAN THOMAS J
father JAMES
mother THERESA
SYDNEY

and that death would fit with the name James travelling down the generations
... but of course there are many Thomas Sheehan deaths to choose from, half of them in Sydney (not so many Bridgets)


it might make sense that Bridget Sr would know her husband's parents' names and record them when he died, but when she died, her children did not know her parents' names


if, big if, the parents of Thomas and Bridget were Thomas and Bridget, there is this death

8073/1899 SHEEHAN THOMAS
father THOMAS
mother BRIDGET
SYDNEY

Mary Ann (who was still iving until 1919) would have known her husband's parents' names if she knew his parents, or if he had known their names


from Sands

a Thomas Sheehan at 14 Foster St up to and including 1899 is not there in 1900
(the T at Fitzroy St and the Thomas at 48 Palmer St are still there in 1900)

so the Thomas who died in 1899 is possibly the one at 14 Foster St


a load more surmising ... but you have to have theories to test out against whatever facts you may find :-D