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Then is this him in 1901???


1901 Census

Name: Charles Broughton
Age: 17
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1884
Relation to Head: Servant
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Frodsham, Cheshire, England
Civil Parish: Ditton
Ecclesiastical parish: Ditton St Michael
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Prescot
Sub-registration District: Widnes
ED, institution, or vessel: 5

Piece: 3512
Folio: 84
Page Number: 15
Household schedule number: 86

Joseph Leather Farmer
Harriet Leather 38
Elizabeth Leather 23
Frederick Rimmer 15
Charles Broughton 17 Agricultural Labourer
James Aldred 14

??????????????????????//


his baptism from familysearch


Name: Charles Henry Broughton
Event Type: Christening
Event Date: 03 Jan 1886
Event Place: , Frodsham, Cheshire, England
Gender: Male
Father's Name: William Charles Broughton
Mother's Name: Anne
GS Film number: 2104548 , Digital Folder Number: 004001115 , Image Number: 00447

Diocese of Chester parish registers of marriages c1538-1910 Transcription (Find My Past)

First name(s) CHARLES HENRY
Last name BROUGHTON (Bachelor. Labourer)
Age 19y
Marriage year 1903
Marriage date 20 Jul 1903
Marriage place FRODSHAM
Spouse's first name(s) Ellen
Spouse's last name Johnson
Spouse's age 19y
Bride's father's name George Johnson (Labourer)
City or town Frodsham
County Cheshire
Country England
Reference item 8 p 15

(Father, William Broughton (Deceased) Labourer. Witnesses James Edwin Ainsworth, Louisa Ainsworth. Frodsham for both at time of Marriage)


(looking at image of Baptism Sylvia posted FMP, Birthdate 7 Dec 1885 Father Labourer)

Chris :)


edits (in case below)

Diocese of Chester parish registers of baptisms c1538-1910 Transcription (Find My Past)
First name(s) Ellen
Last name Johnson
Gender Female
Birth year 1884 (Born July 9th 1884)
Baptism year 1884
Baptism date 17 Aug 1884
Place Grappenhall
County Cheshire
Country England
Father's first name(s) George (occ. Tanner)
Father's last name Johnson
Mother's first name(s) Elizabeth
Mother's last name Johnson

1891
George Johnson Head Married Male 40 1851 Tanner Grappenhall, Cheshire, England
Elizabeth Johnson Wife Married Female 37 1854 - Thelwall, Cheshire, England
William Johnson Son - Male 12 1879 Scholar Grappenhall, Cheshire, England
Ellen Johnson Daughter - Female 6 1885 Scholar Grappenhall, Cheshire, England
Street Knutsford Road
Town Grappenhall
Parish Grappenhall
City Warrington
County Lancashire
Registration district Warrington
Archive reference RG12
Piece number 3081
Folio 128
Page 6


(relating to witness on Marriage above perhaps!)
Marriage: 4 Jun 1906 Holy Trinity, Warrington, Lancashire, England
James Henry Ainsworth - (X), 25 Labourer Bachelor of Pig Hill
Eliza Darlington - 23 Spinster of Friars Green
Groom's Father: James Ainsworth, deceased
Bride's Father: Thomas Darlington, deceased
Witness: Charles Henry Broughton; Ellen Broughton
Married by Banns by: E. C. E. Carleton
Register: Marriages 1901 - 1915, Page 36, Entry 72
Source: LDS Film 2068607

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html

Chris .............


I think you got it!



I was still having problems finding Charles with his parents on earlier censuses.

??????????????


a sister for Charles?????



England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975 about Lily Broughton

Name: Lily Broughton
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 21 Aug 1887
Baptism Place: Frodsham, Cheshire, England
Father: William Charles Broughton
Mother: Ann
FHL Film Number: 2104548




NO .............. there does not seem to be any connection .................. at least not that I can find! I can't find them together on the 1891 census

???????????????????????

I'm just throwing out possible ideas, at the moment!


Cheshire Parish Registers (from familysearch)

Name: William Broughton
Event Type: Intended Marriage
Event Date: 21 Jun 1885
Event Place: , Stoke (near Chester), Cheshire, England
Gender: Male
Spouse's Name: Ann Ainsworth
GS Film number: 2068674 , Digital Folder Number: 004018822 , Image Number: 00281

Looks likely, with Ainsworth connection!.

(another child below looking at Baptism Frodsham (FMP) Parents William, Ann, occ. Labourer)

Cheshire Birth indexes for the years: 1889
BROUGHTON Emma Frodsham Halton FRO/23/97

http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/index.php

Chris :)

edits

Diocese of Chester parish registers of marriages c1538-1910 Transcription (Find My Past)
First name(s) WILLIAM
Last name BROUGHTON (Labourer)
Marriage year 1885
Marriage date 10 Aug 1885
Marriage place STOKE (NEAR CHESTER)
Spouse's first name(s) Anne
Spouse's last name Ainsworth
Bride's father's name James Ainsworth (Labourer)
City or town Stoke (near Chester)
County Cheshire
Reference item 3 p 41
Record set Cheshire Diocese of Chester parish marriages 1538-1910

(Father, Joseph Broughton Deceased, Residence for both at time, Whitby. Wits. Thomas Whitby, Elizabeth Wright. Age for Both, Full)

but why can't I find the family on the 1891 census .............. with Charles with them??????



There are also a couple of trees on ancestry with this marriage ............. none of them seem to have found the 1891 Census, and none of them show Charles!

Abode on Baptism Lily as, Five Crosses Frodsham. Father occ. Teamster.

(lol, Sylvia keep looking, just watching WDYTYA here now!)

Chris :)

(just noticed his Mother!, same image 1903 Frodsham. Widow (37) Father James Ainsworth. Deceased. Labourer. Wits. Arthur Ainsworth, Lucy Gilgrist. Henry Cooke (57) Bachelor. Labourer)


Marriages Sep 1903 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------------------
BROUGHTON Ann Runcorn 8a 462
BROUGHTON Charles Henry Runcorn 8a 462
COOKE Henry Runcorn 8a 462
Johnson Ellen Runcorn 8a 462

oo'er


I didn't pick that one up!!



BUT .................. we need the 1891 Census to prove that Lily and the other children are siblings of Charles, and that Ann(e) is his mother


grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr




there just has to be the wildest mis-transcription one could imagine .................... or they have either not been transcribed OR were omitted from the census

Marriage: 28 Apr 1909 Parish Church, Newchurch in Culcheth, Lancs.
Arthur Wrench - 22 Farm Labourer Bachelor of Alvanley
Emma Broughton - 19 Spinster of Newchurch
Groom's Father: Robert Wrench, Quarry Man
Bride's Father: William Broughton, (deceased)
Witness: Charles Broughton; Mary Ann Parker
Married by banns by: E. W. Whittenbury Kaye, Rector
Register: Marriages 1890 - 1913, Page 99, Entry 197
Source: Original Registers at Chester


1911 (Ancestry)
Emme Wrench
[Emma Wrench]
1890 Frodsham, Cheshire, England Wife Alvanley and Manley, Cheshire

Chris :)

edits

Marriages Dec 1907 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------
BRADBURY William Runcorn 8a 398
BROUGHTON Lily Runcorn 8a 398

1911 (Ancestry)
Lily Bradbury William abt 1888 Frodsham, Cheshire, England Wife Little Woolton, Lancashire

BUT I want the 1891 .......



......... to prove Charles is part of that family!



they seem to have gone to Mars!

Many thanks for all the info. I am so confused with all the Broughtons! I am no longer sure if Charles was born in 1881 or 1884. If he was born in 1881, then William may not be his father, William did not marry Anne Ainsworth until 1885. Aug 10. I do know that Charlie was married twice, maybe even three times. I am going to set aside a day at the weekend and start at the beginning again. Doreen.

On the 1911 census Charles Broughton was thirty years old and living with his widowed mother Mary and his siblings. However he married in 1903, Ellen Johnson and they had children, Herbert, the first son was born in 1905. Ellen did not die until 1920, yet there is no mention of her on this census. Apparently he was 19 when he married Ellen, that is what is recorded on the marriage certificate. He married again in 1922 to Annie Fray who also had several children. He married a third time in 1949 to Gertrude Read. if this is the right charles broughton, then his parents were not William and Anne, but John and Mary. Still trying to sort it out. Doreen.

Doreen .........


you are looking at the wrong 1911 Census

I did post this earlier ............... and I have already sent in corrections to ancestry re the errors in transcribing.


If you read back carefully, you will find where I posted this, and where patchem found the errors

patchem Report 25 Sep 2014 07:03

ON that 1911 census, Charles is from Frodsham,(NOT Frodingham) and his age looks like 26 (NOT 46)





1911 Census

Name: Charles Broughton
Age in 1911: 46 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< age 26 on census image
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865 <<<<<<<< therefore born ca 1885
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Frodingham <<<<<<< Frodsham on census image
Civil Parish: Grappenhall
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England
Street address: Tanners Lane Grappenhall
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Teamoman On Farm <<<<< Teamsman on Farm
Registration district: Runcorn
Registration District Number: 446
Sub-registration district: Budworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Piece: 21613

Charles Broughton 46
Ellen Broughton 29 b.ca 1882, Grappenhall
William Johnson 52 b.ca 1859, Grappenhall, Brother-in-law, Tanner's Labourer <<< probably should be 32
Herbert Broughton 6 b.ca 1905, Walton, Lower
Dorothy Broughton 3 b.ca 1908, Walton, Lower
Charles Broughton 1/12 b.1911, Grappenhall




If William Johnson is Charles brother-in-law, then that means that this is Ellen Johnson

ergo ........... this is "your" Charles.




How do you know his parents were John and Mary, and not William and Ann?



Chris Ho found this ...................


Chris Ho :) Report 25 Sep 2014 07:44

Diocese of Chester parish registers of marriages c1538-1910 Transcription (Find My Past)

First name(s) CHARLES HENRY
Last name BROUGHTON (Bachelor. Labourer)
Age 19y
Marriage year 1903
Marriage date 20 Jul 1903
Marriage place FRODSHAM
Spouse's first name(s) Ellen
Spouse's last name Johnson
Spouse's age 19y
Bride's father's name George Johnson (Labourer)
City or town Frodsham
County Cheshire
Country England
Reference item 8 p 15

(Father, William Broughton (Deceased) Labourer. Witnesses James Edwin Ainsworth, Louisa Ainsworth. Frodsham for both at time of Marriage)

That Register entry of his marriage shows his father to be WILLIAM Broughton, Labourer


Chris also posted ...........

(looking at image of Baptism Sylvia posted FMP, Birthdate 7 Dec 1885 Father Labourer)


This is that Baptism entry ...................

his baptism from familysearch

Name: Charles Henry Broughton
Event Type: Christening
Event Date: 03 Jan 1886
Event Place: , Frodsham, Cheshire, England
Gender: Male
Father's Name: William Charles Broughton
Mother's Name: Anne
GS Film number: 2104548 , Digital Folder Number: 004001115 , Image Number: 00447

National School Admission Registers & Log-books 1870-1914 Transcription (Find My Past)

First name(s) Ellen
Last name Johnson
Birth year 1884
Birth date 09 Jul 1884
Event year 1890
School name Grappenhall Church of England Primary School
Town Grappenhall
County Cheshire
Country England
Parent name(s) George Johnson
Book type Admissions
Archive reference SL52/2/2


First name(s) William
Last name Johnson
Birth year 1879
Birth date 24 Mar 1879
Event year 1886
School name Grappenhall Church of England Primary School
Town Grappenhall
County Cheshire
Country England
Parent name(s) George & Elizth
Book type Admissions
Archive reference SL52/3/2

(and above Brother and Sister with Birthdate same as Baptism I posted. As noted both together on 1911, Ellen the wife of Charles Henry)

Chris :)


Cheshire Birth indexes for the years: 1880
BROUGHTON Charles Wilmslow Cheshire East WIL/22/47

http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/index.php

(this is the one with Parents John and Mary)



Cheshire Birth indexes for the years: 1885
BROUGHTON Charles Henry Frodsham Halton FRO/22/18

(and this one who married Ellen Johnson 1903, parents William and Ann)


(just annoying that we can't find C H one on 1891!)

Thanks to all who have helped to untangle this mess! There is another Charles Broughton, born in 1881, parents John and Mary. They lived in the same region of Cheshire as the other Broughtons. I have never heard of Lily Broughton, but I do know that my grandfather Charles had a son named after him, the son died young after an accident with a horse and cart! With his first wife Ellen, he had Herbert, Charles, Doris, Annie, Edith and Ellen, my mother. He married twice more but did not father any other children. So, my grandfather was actually born in 1884, not 1881 as I had thought. If he was born in 1884, I wonder why he was not christened until 1886? Also, the marriage certificate for William and Anne shows a date of Aug 10, 1885, which means they were not married when Charles was born. I will plod on, and untangle more, I hope!

doreen ..............

Your grandfather was born in 1885 .....................

Birthdate 7 Dec 1885


Charles baptism was not that long after his birth

Baptism 03 Jan 1886


that's less than a month after his birth!


His parents were married 21 Jun 1885

so they were married when he was born, but they HAD anticipated the marriage as his mother was about 3 months pregnant when they married ..................

and that was not at all uncommon, especially in the countryside, but also among the well-to-do



Please do read all the information we've found for your family, and make a table so you get it straight in your mind!




However, for future reference ..................

many children were not baptized until a long time after their birth


part of it was cost .......... the parents may not have been able to afford a baptism.

They often had several children baptised at the same time ................... I don't know whether that was cheaper or what!



some people were not actually baptised at all .............. or were baptised just before they started work


Another reason is that the nearest church might not have a vicar ..... so parents either had to wait until a vicar on rotation arrived or a new vicar was appointed


OR the parents might have wanted to have the child(ren) baptised at their "home" church if they had moved away.



All sorts of reasons ............... just as there is today!

doreen, have you seen below?, already added!...

Chris :)


Cheshire Parish Registers (from familysearch)

Name: William Broughton
Event Type: Intended Marriage
Event Date: 21 Jun 1885
Event Place: , Stoke (near Chester), Cheshire, England
Gender: Male
Spouse's Name: Ann Ainsworth
GS Film number: 2068674 , Digital Folder Number: 004018822 , Image Number: 00281


Name: Charles Henry Broughton
Event Type: Christening
Event Date: 03 Jan 1886
Event Place: , Frodsham, Cheshire, England
Gender: Male
Father's Name: William Charles Broughton
Mother's Name: Anne
GS Film number: 2104548 , Digital Folder Number: 004001115 , Image Number: 00447


(looking at above on Find My Past, Birthdate given 7 Dec 1885 Father Labourer)


Births Dec 1885 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Broughton Charles Henry Runcorn 8a 230


edits (just see Sylvia, posting same time, lol)

:-D :-D

snap!