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Been away for a couple of days, but I agree with Gritty on John Granville Kershaw think he is the product of John's first marriage It's not a common name combination, which is why the probate record drew my attention.

I could mean either Mary/Edith was divorced, or John may have committed bigamy! Who knows, although I can't see a divorce for her.

Hello Vicky- you'll need the birth certificate, but it looks like John Granville Kershaw was John's son from his first marriage to Alice Thomas.

If you look through previous pages on this thread you'll see the John/ Alice marriage.

So, who's son do you think he is?

Until you get the Pike/Kershaw marriage cert to make sure I've got the right family you can't be sure of her siblings - we need to confirm her father's name/occupation.

However, I can say John Granville Kershaw wouldn't have been Florry/John's child - they only married in 1919 and you have to be "of age" (ie 21) to obtain probate. So he was at least 21 when John died.

Hi Flip and Gritty,

I am still digesting all this info and updating my tree. Also I have sent off for the wedding certificate of Mary Ann Pike and John Kershaw and will let you know my findings when it arrives.

Can I also confirm back to you that below are the siblings of Mary Ann aka Edith?
Alice E Pike 15
Henry George W Pike 13
Edith Annie Pike 10
Nellie Pike 6
Annie Pike 3
Charles Arthur Pike 2

This is great and will give me more to go on and who knows I may pick up some more contacts from here.

I will look at John Granville Kershaw records when I have a bit more time as it may be that he is the son of Florry and John but I just need to look at all the dates and census to get this right in my head!

Can anyone look at newspaper BD notices?

Thank you all once again,

Vicky.

For a start, you could check out births for the known children:

Tabitha Sara(h) Francis married in Devon in 1927 to Maurice L Gale. Both died in Devon in 1985.

Minna May Francis married in 1928 to Ernest W B Page, she died (Mina May) in 1989 in Portsmouth

John Granville Kershaw married Eleanor Ratcliffe in Rochdale in 1929. He died in 1979.

All 3 of them appear to have had children...........in the areas they lived and died.

You don't need a subscription to have a tree on ancestry - and if you have your tree on here (or elsewhere) you should be able to upload a gedcom to create the ancestry tree once you register with them.

Thomas appears to have been the only child born to Francis/Pike, so it will be difficult to connect to other family members. Your only real hope would look like tracking down the Francis children from his father's first marriage - look for their marriages & descendants. And then hope the family were close enough to know anything.

We have no way of knowing if Edith/Mary Ann & John Kershaw had any children prior to the 1911 census - as we simply can't find her, and mmn was not recorded until mid 1911. They didn't have any children after they recorded mmn though.

With your Thomas refusing to discuss his past it is quite possible it was not a close family, or a happy one. Or maybe he was just ashamed to have been illegitamate.

Thank you,

ideally I would like to find as many facts around Thomas Francis parents Edith and Thomas and close family relatives in hope to find links of anyone else who have the same members who may have more facts about there life and may be pictures. We would like to understand why Thomas junior knew his mother Edith and as you mentioned provided details at registration but would never discuss her.

I did manage to find true lost relatives 2 -3 years ago with my Hickman family and was hoping for sucess again. I wondered whether it is now worth joining Ancestry to see I can build on my old Hickman tree with all this new information and gain further from there as I think that may be more extensive?

I think I may have mentioned earlier I am hoping to present Marion with a scrapbook of her own family history for Christmas.

:-D

Wouldn't be easy Vicky. The registration office can't allow you access to their bmd registers - your only option there would be to order a certificate(s).

The local records office should have parish registers, but you would have to hope the marriage or event was in a church - and then find which one - it could mean hours of trawling through their records - from memory living near Plymouth there were quite a lot of churches! Although saying that you have a vague area.

Also. if it was a civil marriage (or baptism) then you'll never find anything at the archives centre or church. Same might apply to a non-conformist event (ie Catholic or other none CofE) as many don't deposit their records.

Where are you trying to take this, it would help to know so as we know what else to suggest?

May I ask as I have never done this before, Could I go to a Portsmouth church or a records office to look up past marraiges etc to gain further information?

Not sure if you are interested, but there is a slight twist in this tale. From my notes, I found a death for John Kershaw in Rochdale, the address on the military record when he was de-mobbed was 10 Middle Lane, Rochdale.

There is a death 29/4/1929, and he was of 3 South Lane, Rochdale - probate was granted to Florry Kershaw (his widow) and John Granville Kershaw (his son??). Looks like he married a widow Florry Dickinson (nee Brearley) at St Mary the Virgin, Wardleworth, Rochdale in 1919. It is only the name of John Granville that drew me to this. Florry's husband Gilbert Wood Dickinson was killed in 1917 WW1.

Now this may not be the same John Kershaw, but I'm posting up just in case it comes in useful, and before I loose the scribbles on my notebook!

Not sure where you go next, other than to get the marriage certificate to John Kershaw - it's got to be the right one, too much other info points to it. That way you can confirm her father's name, and maybe the witnesses may give a lead.

Thank you all once again, this is a lot to take in, I shall carefully read through and try to make good sense of it and look at what to do next???

Well, we can't find either of them in 1911. But the commanding officer from John's ship is also missing so maybe he was overseas. Who knows.

The one thing that stikes me as odd, Thomas Francis must have known about his mother to have given so much detail on her death reg - like he knew about her husband, her previous name etc. Either he had certificates or she discussed it with him. Guess he took that to the grave, so we'll never know.

I don't see her- although I think the 1891/ 1901 census that you put above are probably correct, making this Mary's birth:

Name: MARY ANN PIKE
Birth year 1875
Birth quarter 1
District HENLEY
County Oxfordshire
Country England
Volume 3A
Page 503
Record set England & Wales births 1837-2006

From Jan.1911 - Jan.1912 it look like Hibernia (HMS, I presume as there is a vessel of that name), I think the commanding officer's name is John Luce.

I didn't really think she'd be under Francis, but with ducking and diving you never know ;-)

I don't see anything at the moment for Mary/ Edith- I don't think she'd be under Francis as (if the 1911 census on the first page of this thread is correct) he was still with his first wife in 1911.

In John Kershaw's military record where is he posted in 1911?

I don't know what ancestry has transcribed the 1901 census as - I can't find it. Have you had any luck on FMP with Mary Ann/Edith on 1911? Could be Kershaw, Pike or even Francis......

1901 for John Kershaw at Priory Road, Portsmouth-

John Kershaw Head Married Male 27 1874 Gunner R M A Littleborough, Lancashire,
Alice Kershaw Wife Married Female 28 1873 Tenby, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Leonard Sutton Boarder Single Male 15 1886 Errand Boy Hampshire, England

Archive reference RG13
Piece number 990
Folio 128
Page 14

I think you may be right Gritty - I did wonder about the birth not being recorded as Pike - so I guess he's no relation to Francis.

There are some crossings out on the military record, but it does say wife. Earlier addresses are for his mother Alice, but then there's an address in Eastney which has been crossed out. Then it says son, and the address in Littleborough as on 1911 census.