Find Ancestors

going back to George's birth ...did he have a middle name ?
we traced our gggranfather because his mother had given the birth father's surname as middle name to her daughter .
first name s could also be given to a child as a ref to the father .
Also in my scottish family several of the children had various grandparents surname as well as christian names before their own surnames.

In this case The scottish naming would have 1st son named after paternal grandfather .....as he was illegitimate naming him George after her own father would seem logical was Carruthers one of his middle name 's too ?

i'm following this story with interest ( I have a gggrandma Agnes Mcfarlane born 1832 in lanarkshire )

going back to George's birth ...did he have a middle name ?
we traced our gggranfather because his mother had given the birth father's surname as middle name to her daughter .
first name s could also be given to a child as a ref to the father .
Also in my scottish family several of the children had various grandparents surname as well as christian names before their own surnames.

In this case The scottish naming would have 1st son named after paternal grandfather .....as he was illegitimate naming him George after her own father would seem logical was Carruthers one of his middle name 's too ?

i'm following this story with interest ( I have a gggrandma Agnes Mcfarlane born 1832 in lanarkshire )

if you think that there may be a McVean connection here ... I wonder whether Canada might be a source ? (could possibly have visited the Glasgow McVeans during WWI as men from overseas did often go to see family when posted in Britain)

in searching a bit on the internet one sees people in Canada with an interest in their Scottish McVean roots e.g. in family trees at Ancestry and genforum
http://genforum.genealogy.com/mcvean/
about McVeans who were in Canada (and some who went to the USA) before 1900
for instance
http://genforum.genealogy.com/mcvean/messages/1.html
(on a search of that forum for 'glasgow')

there are 8 McVeans in the
Service Files of the First World War, 1914-1918 - Canadian Expeditionary Force
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/first-world-war-1914-1918-cef/Pages/search.aspx

and of course the USA is also a possible source ... there are nearly 60 WWI draft registration cards for men named McVean shown at familysearch

the name Ia(i)n doesn't seem to appear in military records or censuses in either country though

oh I wonder, this could be interesting

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JV2P-JJX

Name: Ian Macvean
Occupation: Gent
Death Date: 14 Jan 1982
Event Place: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Residence City: Rye
Event Date: 02 Jul 1982

... but other info on line says he was born 1902 which is a bit late
http://www.geni.com/people/Ian-Macvean/1440759

(has the Australian Trove site also destroyed its search function? I can't find a way to search for specific kinds of records e.g. military, now)


anyway what I was going to say was that if you wanted to pursue the McVean possibility specifically, you might be able to find a male McVean who is interested in genealogy (or a female McVean descendant with a male rellie she can get to participate, which is as often the case) to do YDNA testing - or failing a male-line descendant, any McVean descendant to do autosomal (cousinship) DNA testing - for direct comparison via a site like ftdna.

there actually is a Prof Gil McVean at Oxford who studies the Y chromosome :-)
http://www.stats.ox.ac.uk/~mcvean/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14593400
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=McVean%20G[Author]&cauthor=true&cauthor_uid=14593400
who knows, he might be interested!

Just in the passing Catherine, last night I read the thread again and went back to looking for McVeans in the Glasgow area (given the bracelet that Jane wore). Would you believe that by pure co-incidence there were McVeans living at the same address as the Carruthers family that I posted on page 1. Small world as neither Carruthers nor McVean are common Glasgow surnames.

hello Catfr, I've read through this long and tangled and interesting thread :-) ... and am just wondering whether there is something that might be done about the original question

does George have any male-line descendants, that is, did he have a son who might be living, or who had a son who is living?

if so, it is possible that YDNA (male-line) testing could point a direction

YDNA is passed from father to son, and so ordinarily follows the surname, except where a child is given a surname other than his father's

it changes very little in that process, and in fact can be passed on for 3 or 4 generations (on average) with no change at all

so a grandson of your George - a great-great-grandson of George's father's father - would have almost the same YDNA as another great-great-grandson of George's father's father, for instance, that is, a pair of 3rd cousins, men descended in male lines from the same great-great-grandfather, would have the same or almost the same YDNA

even if there were someone with, say, the same 5xgreat grandfather in the male line, the YDNA would still be a very close match

using this tool to find relations depends on there being a male-line descendant ... and on someone related having also tested and made their results available for comparison through one of the companies that offer such services

I have used Family Tree DNA and in fact have solved a mystery in the male line of one of my families (well, created new mysteries..!) by finding, though the most amazing luck, one other person who had tested who was a close match for my rellie and whose 'paper' genealogy matches my family's (from the same small area of Cornwall) ... so I now know what the 'real' surname for the family is, just not when and how and why it changed (a child given the mother's surname, a man who intentionally changed his surname, etc etc)

I recommend trying this route if you do have a male-line descendant available to test ... if your fiancé's parent who was George's child is his mother, that would break the chain, but if she has a brother, he could be tested

a YDNA67 test at FTDNA would be what I would recommend
https://www.familytreedna.com/y-dna-compare.aspx
https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/dna-basics/ydna/

I should add that there is another kind of DNA testing called 'autosomal' that you could try if there are no male-line descendants, I unfortunately do not know enough about this to be helpful - at FTNA it is called 'family finder' - it can identify cousins and then 'traditional' genealogy (or testing of other known cousins) can be used to determine what side the cousins are on


very probably you would not have the luck I had, but over time as more people join these projects, you never know

We know she was a very strong woman and her son worked very hard to make sure they left his illegitimacy behind and had them living in comfort which he did very successfully by getting into university.. They were both incredibly amazing people!

I'd like to thank you ALL for all your help on this, it will mean a great deal to my partners mum and such a comfort to her to know all of this. Even to know some of her famil will be overwhelming for her after her years of searching. Thank you everyone!

If there is no father named on the birth certificate, it may well remain a mystery. It may be that it was just a made up story that his father died in the war if his Mum didn't want to marry his father or perhaps his father was free to marry Jane.

So although you still don't know who his father was you now know who his Grandparents, uncles, half uncles , great grandparents, grand aunts and grand uncles were lol.

If it is any consolation, his Mum must have worked hard if she lived in the area where her death was registered as it is one of the posher areas of Glasgow.

Given the death that ArgyllGran found for George's wife, this is a possibility for her with her parents. Again either her marriage certificate or death certificate will confirm her parents' names.

1851

Name: Jane Carruthers
Age: 9
Estimated birth year: abt 1842
Relationship: Daughter
Father's Name: James Carruthers
Mother's name: Janet Carruthers
Gender: Female
Where born: Partick, lansh
Parish Number: 644/1
Civil Parish: Glasgow St George
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 47 Shamrock Street
Occupation: Scholar
ED: 8
Page: 15 (click to see others on page)
Household schedule number: 51
LINE: 4
Roll: CSSCT1851_153
Household Members:
Name Age
James Carruthers 44, House Servant, b. Lochmaben, Dumfriesshire
Janet Carruthers 44, b. Annan, Dumfriesshire
Wm Carruthers 13, son, Message Boy, b. Old Monkland, Lanarkshire
Jane Carruthers 9
James Carruthers 7, son, Partick, Lanarkshire

1861

Name: Jane Carruthers
Age: 19
Estimated birth year: abt 1842
Relationship: Daughter
Mother's name: Janet Carruthers
Gender: Female
Where born: Cannisbus, Dumbartonshire
Registration Number: 644/6
Registration district: Blythswood
Civil Parish: Glasgow St George
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 44 Shamrock St
ED: 6
Household schedule number: 4
LINE: 18
Roll: CSSCT1861_105
Household Members:
Name Age
Janet Carruthers 55
William Carruthers 23, Law Clerk
Jane Carruthers 19,
James Carruthers 17 Apprentice Grocer, b. Milngavie, Dumbartonshire

1871

Name: Jane Carruthers
Age: 28
Estimated birth year: abt 1843
Relationship: Daughter
Father's Name: James Carruthers
Mother's name: Janet Carruthers
Gender: Female
Where born: Cannistown, Dumbartonshire
Registration Number: 644/6
Registration district: Blythswood
Civil Parish: Glasgow St George
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 44 Shamrock St
Occupation: Dressmaker
ED: 6
Household schedule number: 13
LINE: 18
Roll: CSSCT1871_133
Household Members:
Name Age
James Carruthers 64
Janet Carruthers 64
Jane Carruthers 28
James Carruthers 26 Grocer

Thank you, however I think online is my only option as unfortunately I am from the South so a journey to Scotland is out of the question sadly. I merely wanted to solve a mystery that has plagued the family for decades, maybe one day we'll find out what really happened..

Sorry Catherine, I can't seem to copy and paste the website link using this iPad.

Just google "Scotlandspeople" and you'll find it. It is a pay to view site and they don't do subscriptions. The actual images of the census records for Scotland can also be viewed there. The ones posted on the thread are from (in my case) Ancestry and they are transcripts so may be inaccurate.

If you live in Scotland it would be far better to spend the day at The Scotlandspeople Centre in Edinburgh or the Mitchell Library in Glasgow. It only costs £15.00 for they day and you can view as many entries as time permits. You would be able to view George Carruthers McFarlane,s birth registration there as you can't online as he was born less than 100 years ago. If you go in person, you will be able to see if there is an RCE (Register of Corrected Entries) reference attached to it. This would show if Jane had gone to court to have paternity proved.

Credits for Scotlandspeople cost £7.00 for 30, one credit to view search results and five to view. / download the register entry.

Hope this helps you.

And to make you aware, I did not know she was paying money either. I thank ArgyllGran for all her research most heartedly.

Elizabeth seems to be unsure of her year of birth or it has been mistranscribed?

1901

Name: Elizabeth Mcfarlane
Age: 17
Estimated birth year: abt 1884
Relationship: Niece
Gender: Female
Where born: Kilmartin, Argyllshire
Registration Number: 521
Registration district: Kilmartin
Civil Parish: Kilmartin
County: Argyll
Address: Pollalloch Lodge
Occupation: Scholar
ED: 5
Household schedule number: 2
LINE: 14
Roll: CSSCT1901_180
Household Members:
Name Age
John Stewart 58
Elizabeth Stewart 58
Elizabeth Brodie 83. Mother in law, living on own means
Elizabeth Mcfarlane 17

rootgatherer - I didn't ask argyllgran to look it up for me, she did out of good nature which I am grateful for. If I knew which website she used then I would have done it myself. It's a little unfair to say that.

Elizabeth's death:

1905 BRODIE ELIZABETH MACFARLANE F 86 KILMARTIN /ARGYLL 521/00 0004

And I'm stopping now for the night!

To help narrow the timescale for Elizabeth's death, her she is in 1891

Name: Elizabeth Brodie
Age: 66
Estimated birth year: abt 1825
Relationship: Wife
Spouse's name : Robert Brodie
Gender: Female
Where born: Minnigaff, Kirkcudbright
Registration Number: 521
Registration district: Kilmartin
Civil Parish: Kilmartin
County: Argyll
Address: Mheall House
ED: 5
Household schedule number: 5
LINE: 14
Roll: CSSCT1891_168
Household Members:
Name Age
Robert Brodie 73
Elizabeth Brodie 66
Margaret McFarlane 42, daughter, b. Kilmartin
John McFarlane 12, Grandson, born: Kilmichael Glassary, Argyllshire
Elizabeth Jane McFarlane 7 Grand Daughter, b. Kilmartin
Catherine Campbell 17 Servant
Duncan McCallum 29, Lodger, Assist. Gamekeeper

Can't see any Eliza(beth) McFarlane born in Minnigaff around the right time.
There are these in Kilmartin area, but wrong parents:

07/02/1823 MCFARLAN ELIZABETH ALEXANDER MCFARLAN/CATHERINE MCFADEN FR456 (FR456) F GLASSARY /ARGYLL 511/00 0030 0034

14/06/1823 MCFARLAN ELIZABETH DONALD MCFARLAN/JANET CAMPBELL FR456 (FR456) F GLASSARY /ARGYLL 511/00 0030 0035


ADDED: Her sister Jean (McVean)'s birthplace varies from Kilmartin, to Kirkcudbrightshire or Dumfriesshire in the censuses, too.

I think it is certainly looking that way Catherine.

Elizabeth' s death certificate and Jeanie's would confirm the names of their parents. You can use both the maiden and married surnames to search for a female death on Scotlandspeople. You really need to buy some credits and not have ArgyllGran using hers.

So Elizabeth Brodie was originally a McFarlane, brother of George and Jeanie then?

ArgyllGran, can you do something with that link please as it is extending the page width. Think there is a way to shorten it but not sure how.

Name: Elizabeth Brodie
Age: 48
Estimated birth year: abt 1823
Relationship: Wife
Spouse's name : Robert Brodie
Gender: Female
Where born: Minnigaff, Wigtown
Registration Number: 521
Registration district: Kilmartin
Civil Parish: Kilmartin
County: Argyll
Address: Mhall Cottage
Occupation: Gamekeeper Wife
ED: 5
Household schedule number: 7
LINE: 18
Roll: CSSCT1871_91
Household Members:
Name Age
Robert Brodie 55 b. Kilbride, Bute
Elizabeth Brodie 48
Elizabeth Brodie 26
Robert Brodie 22Name: Elizabeth Brodie
Age: 48
Estimated birth year: abt 1823
Relationship: Wife
Spouse's name : Robert Brodie
Gender: Female
Where born: Minnigaff, Wigtown
Registration Number: 521
Registration district: Kilmartin
Civil Parish: Kilmartin
County: Argyll
Address: Mhall Cottage
Occupation: Gamekeeper Wife
ED: 5
Household schedule number: 7
LINE: 18
Roll: CSSCT1871_91
Household Members:
Name Age
Robert Brodie 55, Kilbride, Bute
Elizabeth Brodie 48
Elizabeth Brodie 26 b. Kilmartin, Daughter
Robert Brodie 22 Son, b. Kilmartin
James Brodie 16, son, b. Kilmartin
Ann McVean 16, niece, b. Largs, ayrshire
Janet McVean 7, niece, b. Ireland


So looks like Elizabeth Brodie is the sister of George McFarlane and Jeanie McVean ms McFarlane?