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Jo Cant find a Tynemouth marriage but there is this one.....
June quarter 1896
Jackson Sarah Eleanor S. Shields 10a 1275
Jensen Louis S. Shields 10a 1275
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Jo.....Guess this is Charles Death.....
1898 June.quarter
Venus Charles 37 S.Shields. 10a 475
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Sure does, getting my head round it slowly.
Wondering if you could help with this one...
In the family the story goes that Louis Christian Jensen b 1868 was lost at sea.
Probably around 1911 as the last child, George was born in September 1911.
He and the family are together living in Durham in the 1901 census.
By the 1911 census he is not on the form and the wife, Sarah Eleanor, called Ellen, is now shown as head of household but still listed as married.
Interestingly she has changed the names to the English version of Jensen, Johnson.
He was a Danish sailor, they married in Tynemouth in 1896 and moved across to the Wallsend area where there was a lot of work available.
Guess he went back to sea and was either lost overboard or perhaps got fed up and headed off back to Denmark or even emigrated. I can find lots of Jensens heading off to find a new life in the USA .
She married again in 1915 ( why did all our relatives get married in 1915? Is it as you say because of the war?)
If you have any suggestions of how I can find records of anyone lost at sea or you have any idea how I can track him down that would be amazing. Would also love to find out where he came from and his family but Jensen is the most common name in Denmark and all we know is that he had a brother called Theodore so not much hope there. Withy thanks Jo :-D
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There nothing numpty about that Jo - we all do it!!
You have had a lot of info thrown at you, takes some digesting. :-)
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All sounds very sensible and I am quite sure this is what happened.
When I said no mention of Isabella Venus b1905 I meant that she was not shown as with her mother on the day of the 1901 census but got hopelessly confused as she wouldn't have been as she was not born for another four years!
What a numpty!!!!
Many thanks
Jo :-S
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Oh, another thing!
The Hannas and the Dials married 1915 - could be that they hadn't previously been bothered about troubling the vicar but if the men were going to go off to war they might have wanted to tidy things up.
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Forgot to add above, again it's not unusual for ages to vary by the amounts you mention. People weren't so hung up on ages back then and may guesstimate when asked how old they were. People simply didn't need to prove their ages - no driving licences, passports, social security, etc. Literacy plays a part, if someone wasn't so good at reading & writing (if at all) then they possibly didn't know what their certificate said (that's providing their birth HAD been registered - a lot weren't).
Of course, people also fibbed about ages for other reasons, sometimes to hide an age gap in a couple. Isabella was older than David so could well be the reason.
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Jo, the BMD entries are the ones that will be correct, not the info on the census. For whatever reason, people told all sorts of porkie pies on the census. Might just be that people never got round to marrying until later. They would most likely fib on the census if they had children.
This is the marriage entry for Mary Venus on South Tyneside's website, it does give an exact date for the marriage:
1915 -
Mary VENUS
Spouse: Robert DIAL
Register: R 104 Entry: 8
Date: 24/03/1915
Not sure what you mean by "There is no mention of Isabella b 1905 but she would only have been 4 so surely with her mother?" - she is on the 1911 with her mother and shown as stepdaughter to David Hanna.
Any children that Isabella nee Irving had after her first husband died would be registered in the name of Venus as that was her surname at the time. It's not uncommon for a deceased husband to be named as the father of a child born to a widow, even if it was born several years after his death. It would be different if the biological father of the child acknowledged paternity and accompanied the mother to register the birth - it may then be registered in his surname.
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Prickly holly
This is a strange one. Isabella Irving b '1864' married Charles Venus in 1884.
The 1891 census has them living in Hedworth, South Shields district though Venus has been spelt as Vemis, all the other details are correct.
I can find a death record for him in 1898.
1901 shows her living with four children in Willington Quay listed as a widow.
There is no mention of Isabella b 1905 but she would only have been 4 so surely with her mother?
David Hanna is living near by with his wife and young son in the 1901 census.
The next I can find is 1911 census. Isabella married to David Hanna and they have two children of their own plus Walter Venus and Isabella Venus b 1905 listed as step children.
The census says year of marriage 1906 but the wedding is dated 1915 in the records office and online in this site.
Isabella also seems to knock a few years off her age I know dates are not accurate but she is born 1864, 1867 and then 1871 by 1911.
Sadly Walter was killed in WW1 aged 19.
Isabella jnr as you have found goes on to marry Charles L Clark in 1925. Her birth date may well be 1903 not 1905 but I don't think Isabella married again between Charles Venus and David Hanna as she was Venus on the wedding certificate so it was still an immaculate conception if she was a Venus!
Just to confuse things further daughter Mary Venus b 1890 is married in the 1911 census with a child but her wedding is also dated 1915 so perhaps some of the South Shields records got lost in translation and the dates were not accurate?
Thank you for the children and death details for Isabella jnr she at least had a better life than poor Walter or James Robert who ended up in the poor house.
Many thanks
Jo
:-)
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Although the 1911 census states Isabella Venus was born 1905 Willington Quay...
I am wondering if this is actually her birth registration.....
(Tynemouth is the registration district for Willington Quay)
England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Isabella Venus Name:Isabella Venus
Date of Registration:Jul-Aug-Sep 1903
Registration district:Tynemouth
Inferred County:Northumberland
Volume:10b
Page:224
??
England & Wales, Marriage Index, 1916-2005
about Isabella Venus Name:Isabella Venus
Spouse Name: Charles L Clark
Date of Registration:Jul-Aug-Sep 1925
Registration district:Tynemouth
Inferred County:Northumberland
Volume Number:10b
Page Number:407
England & Wales, Death Index, 1916-2007
about Isabella Clark Name:Isabella Clark
Birth Date:7 Jul 1903
Date of Registration:Mar 1984
Age at Death:80
Registration district:Durham Central
Inferred County:Durham
Volume:1
Page:1235
Births Jun 1926 (>99%)
Clark Marguerite Venus Durham 10a 762
Births Jun 1928 (>99%)
Clark Jean Venus Durham 10a 684
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David... Just for interest....the following may well be family of Annie Southern's ...also lived on Keelmans Row.
1851....
Here's the entry for 1851.
HO107/2409/98
Keelman's Row, Willington, Northumberland
William Southern, Head, Mar, 37, Waterman, Northum'd Wallsend
Ellen Southern, Wife, Mar, 33, Northum'd Wallsend
William Southern, Son, 9, Scholar, Northum'd Wallsend
John Southern, Son, 7, Scholar, Northum'd Wallsend
Edward Southern, Son, 5, Scholar, Northum'd Wallsend
Elizabeth Southern, Daur, 2, Northum'd Wallsend
Catherine Southern, Daur, 10mo, Northum'd Wallsend
The entry above this one is for
William Southerm, Head, Widr, 74, Waterman, Northum'd Newburn
1861
RG9/3835/98
Willington, Howden, Northumberland
William Southern, Head, Mar, 47, Waterman
Elenor Southern, Wife, Mar, 43,
William Southern, Son, Un, 19, Waterman
John Southern, Son, Un, 17, Waterman
Edward Southern, Son, Un, 15, Carter
Elizabeth Southern, Daur, 12,
Catherine Southern, Daur, 10,
George Southern, Son, 8,
Eleanor Southern, Daur, 3,
Elizabeth Brown, Mother in law, Wid, 69, Northum'd Wallsend
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Just worked out all the children, Charles Venus died in 1898. In 1901 widow Isabella was living in Willington Quay with four children, Dorothy, Mary, James and Walter.
In 1911 when she turns up living as wife of David Hanna she has still got Walter with her and Isabella Venus, a "step child" to David Hanna who was born in 1905 !
Long after Charles Venus died. Looks like granny had another sister! :-S
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Yes Now realise David Hanna joined the Londonderry Artillery for 2 years, disappeared, possibly to South Africa? Turns up in Northumberland, marries Annie Southern who dies aged 26 along with their son John aged 3. He then takes up with a local widow Isabella Venus (nee Irving) who is living in the same place, they get together and make a new family with some of her children, Walter and Isabella Venus and some of their own, David and Sarah - this Sarah is my husbands grandmother!
Claim to be married in 1911 census but didn't marry until 1915 after both children were born! David died in 1953.
With all your help we can now put pieces into the jigsaw in the right place!
<3
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Indoor Pauper Inmates Of South Shields Union Workhouse
1911 England Census
about James Robert Venus Name:James Robert Venus
Age in 1911:17
Estimated birth year:abt 1894
Relation to Head:Inmate
Gender:Male
Birth Place:Jarrow, Durham, England
Civil Parish:Harton Whitburn
County/Island:Durham
Country:England
Marital Status:Single
Occupation:Farm Labourer
Registration district:South Shields
Registration District Number:556
Sub-registration district:South Shields
British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920
about James Robert Venus Name:James Robert Venus
Estimated birth year:abt 1893
Age at enlistment:24
Residence:9 George Street, Jarrow
Occupation: Cartman
Document Year:1917
Regimental Number:210968
Regiment Name:Depot Labour Coy Northern Command
Next of Kin: Mrs Isabella Hannah nee Venus (Mother)
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Possible 1st marriage......
Marriages Sep 1897 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hanna David Tynemouth 10b 438
SOUTHERN Annie Tynemouth 10b 438
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Wonder if this is Isabelle's son Walter Venus....
VENUS, WALTER
Rank:Private
Service No:23340
Date of Death:07/07/1916
Regiment/Service:Northumberland Fusiliers
9th Bn.
Panel ReferencePier and Face 10 B 11 B and 12 B.
MemorialTHIEPVAL MEMORIAL
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???
David Hanna
Ireland Births and Baptisms, 1620-1881
birth: 23 May 1875 Londonderry, Ireland
residence: 1875 Ireland
father: Samuel Hanna
mother: Mary Jane Walker
Name David Hanna
Gender Male
Christening Date
Christening Place
Birth Date 23 May 1875
Birthplace Londonderry, Ireland
Death Date
Name Note
Race
Father's Name Samuel Hanna
Father's Birthplace
Father's Age
Mother's Name Mary Jane Walker
Mother's Birthplace
Mother's Age
Indexing Project (Batch) Number C70158-9
System Origin Ireland-EASy
GS Film number 255928
Reference ID v 6-2 p 938
family search also shows birth of a John Hanna 18.2.1877 in Londonderry to the same couple (John name of David's first son). Father Samuel is shown as born Broharris Tamlaght Finlagan
and
Annie Hanna 23.5.1879 Finlagan, Londonderry
Mary Hanna 4.3.1881 Finlagan
Also in the Civil Registration Indexes within family search, this one which might be a giveaway for the same couple -
John Walker Hanna b 1875 Londonderry
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You are welcome David.
Prickles. x
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Wow, thank you all so much, I am new to this game and need to learn to think laterally and try different names. Everything fits together perfectly. When looking for David Hanna I did find a David Hanna in Willington Quay and married to someone else and thought it more than a coincidence that when he married Isabella Venus she had a child born at Willington Quay. Now I know where they must have met. his first wife and her first husband died but they are still shown as a married to each other in the 1911 census but actually married in 1915! And they think our generation are the liberal ones!
Stunned by the information and quick replies <3
Jo :-D :-D :-D
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