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Looking through the records again I see that Frances Gertude and Charles (the horse man) had a son named Henry who was baptised 1906 so I'm now certain they are not the couple living at Walthamstow in 1911.

As has been said, there seems to be no other marriage for a Charles and Frances around 1904 as indicated by the census.

I've found probable births for all the children - all registered at West Ham if they are the ones.

Cant find anything on the London Marriages, Banns, Births and Baptisms - normally a good source but would Leyton and Walthamstow be outside that area?

Leyton and Walthamstow were not classed as London

You could look at England Marriages and England Christenings - both on Ancestry - but not all areas are covered


England & Wales Christening Records, 1530-1906

England & Wales Marriages, 1538-1940

Thanks GB.

I've already looked the Christening records with no joy but I'll have a go at Marriages 1538-1940 ..........though that might not help if they didn't get married!

Pleased to say we have now made some progress on Charles and Frances.

The birth certificate for daughter Lily in 1909 names her as Lily Esther Martin. Esther is a name that is repeated in every generation of our branch of the Martins.

The father is Charles John Martin and the mother is named as Frances Rosetta Day but so far we still cant find any marriage of them.

At the time of the birth they were living at 14 Nursery Cottages, Lea Bridge Road, Leyton

OK...likely birth

Name: Frances Rosetta Day
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1881
Registration District: Lambeth
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1d
Page: 322

baptism

Name: Frances Rosetta Day
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 3 Jul 1881
Father's Name: Henry Day
Mother's Name: Mary Ann Day
Parish or Poor Law Union: Lambeth St John the Evangelist
Borough: Lambeth
Register Type: Parish Registers

but not a marriage in sight :-(

There is a private tree on Ancestry with her in - you could try contacting the owner

Jude

Name: Frances Rosetta Martin
Probate Date: 20 Sep 1960
Death Date: 13 Jul 1960
Death Place: London, England
Registry: London, England

Frances Rosetta 71 Gosport Road London wife of Charles John Martin retired engine driver died 13 July 1960 Whipps Cross Hospital

Jude

Do you know Charles ACTUAL DOB?

There's this death

Name: Charles John Martin
Birth Date: 25 Oct 1879
Date of Registration: Sep 1975
Age at Death: 95
Registration District: North Bucks
Inferred County: Buckinghamshire
Volume: 19
Page: 1004

Hi Stephen
My Grandfather was George Henry Martin from Bermondsey B 1882. 13th January)
I was unable to find him on the 1901 Census. I found his wife Alice (nee Bonney) and two eldest daughters I am wondering if he is brother on your census?
My Great Grandfather was also George,, married Mary Ann Bourne and my father was Charles George , as the eldest son also George died, so my Dad was given it as a second name., being the next son born, He had a brother called Henry Francis
so many names the same? I know very little about the Martin family,

Pauline, Stephen's George is single in 1911 so cannot be the same as your George Henry who married Alice Bonney in 1898. And Stephen's George is the son of William and Emma

Jude,

Dont have Charles' Actrual DoB yet but Frances was 5th June 1881 and I've come across the same births and deaths for her as you have.

I'm a bit dubious about Charles being an engine driver as he was just a labourer, then a stoker at the waterworks into his 30s!

Been looking at Martin births registered at West Ham with the mother's name of Day - found seven more so far from 1912 to 1922 - nice and evenly spaced!

Jude,

Just found Charles DoB tucked on the end of his Baptism:
Born 10th February 1879 (now corrected)
:-)

Typo I hope..1879 :-)


The occupation is on the probate image :-)

Typos arem my speciality Jude. Will check out that probate (If I can)
:-)

It's on Ancestry - doesn't say a lot more than I have typed out

Jude

Stephen,

You have put above:
'I'm a bit dubious about Charles being an engine driver as he was just a labourer, then a stoker at the waterworks into his 30s!'

You are making assumptions that 'engine driver' would have referred to someone who worked on the railways.

Copied over from rootschat:
'My great grandfather was always recorded as engine driver at the water works - but I suspect that the engine he "drove" did not move along any rails. (I think he was too fond of the bottle to be in charge of an engine that actually went anywhere with passengers on board ::) ) I think that today we might call such people "machine operators"

Alive in 1964 - same address as George and Lily E Hurst

Name: Charles J Martin
Year: 1964
County or Borough: Walthamstow
Ward or Division/Constituency: West Division
Street Address: 71 Gosport Road
Reference Number: LCC/PER/B/2968

and 1965

Name: George S Hurst
Year: 1965
County or Borough: Walthamstow
Ward or Division/Constituency: West Division
Street Address: 71 Gosport Road
Reference Number: LCC/PER/B/3074

Image shows he is there too

I'd wager this being his death

Name: Charles J Martin
Birth Date: abt 1880
Date of Registration: Mar 1969
Age at Death: 89
Registration District: Redbridge
Inferred County: Greater London
Volume: 5d
Page: 773

sadly this looks like being George - note the address of nok

Name: George Martin
Rank: Sto 1st
Birth Date: 2 Jan 1883
Birth Place: Hoxton, London
Branch of Service: Royal Navy
Cause of Death: Killed or died as a direct result of enemy action
Official Number Port Division: S.S.102123. (R.F.R.Ch. B.7258.) (Ch)
Death Date: 22 Sep 1914
Ship or Unit: HMS Aboukir
Location of Grave: Not recorded
Name and Address of Cemetery: Body Not Recovered For Burial
Relatives Notified and Address: Wife: 71, Gosport Road, WalthumstowE

Patchem,

You are correct that I made an assumption of him driving a train and I've now also come round to the idea of him operating a machine.

Jude,

Agree this is indeed looking more and more to be Charles, with George also linked to that address adding to the case. 71 Gosport Road is now extremely convincing. I think this is QED!

Many thanks. :-)