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For Chris Ho I sent for this one ,it was for LOTTIE MONICA.regards Mary.

If she is Lottie, and her mother is Charlotte, might her death have been registered under the name Charlotte, under the (mistaken) assumption that Lottie was a pet name?

There is this death registration of a Charlotte Harvey with a reasonable match to the above details, in Edmonton:

Charlotte Harvey
(born) abt 1894
(Death registered) Jul-Aug-Sep 1939 Edmonton Middlesex

Mary thanks...railway porter was an educated guess (I have a similar relative and before I realised wondered why none of the several children were born in the same place).

But the only Frank I can find was born 1870, has parents George and EMMA (not Margaret) and is married to Martha in 1901 and 1911. :-(

But..if Irene is your sister that would make Lottie your mother not your grandmother (as in original post) ???? But you then go on to say then lottie my mother and her brother were admitted to workhouse jan 1928.

Do you mean Irene was your MOTHER's sister?

So what happened to your mother and her brother in/after workhouse? Do you know?

Jude

Hi again Jude.I haven't half put you in a muddle.Lottie was my g mother,my mother was ethel Barbara born in Sculcoates1921.Then her brother Frederick james in leeds 1926, that,s last record of frank.Irene who died in Rutherglen was my sister.aunt Irene who will be 95 in dec lives in Derby.UncleJim is 87 living in Bournemouth.it,s for them I,m desperate to find where and when lottie died to give them closure.My mother died in 1953 aged just 32 when I was 10.hope this makes things clearer.kind regards Mary.

HI ivy thank you for your trouble.I will investigate this possibility .kind regards Mary.

OK will have a play in the morning before I go to work :-)

Jude

OK - hubby watching cricket.... :-)

So Your mum was Ethel Barbara born Sculcoates who died in Rutherglen Scotland.

Other children were Arthur Douglas born and died Lincoln 1919

Irene born Belper 1918 - she lives in Derby (still) aged 95 - nearly!!!

Frederick James (Uncle Jim) born Leeds 1926 and now lives in Bournemeotuh aged 87

Ha ha..I guessed at Irene and Fred and picked them out :-)

OK.....Frank appears to have "disappeared" just after Jim's birth.....the only Frank I can find in censuses is one born Rugeley in 1870, son of George and Emma, who marries Martha Price in 1893 in Northwich. I can't find a corresponding death for her and so wonder if the reason they married in Scotland was because he wasn't (a) a bachelor or (b) free to marry :-(

So I wonder if his disappearance was due to the fact he was a bigamist - all supposition here of course.

So picking her death is pretty hard....

Spot on Jude all children present and correct ha.Also I have already suspected he might be a bigamist and might even have changed his name.On his marriage cert he is 46 so would be born 1871-2.Ihave searched records for a marriage for George Harvey and Mary ann Transfield no luck,even with uncommon name.Checked 1881 census and only person with her name and married to a George and with 9yrs old son named Frank was a George Clark.Also the fact he came to Scotland just to marry.It,s not as if she was underage and had to elope.There is also the fact he never stayed in one place long.How would u go about finding if he was already married?You will be needing a stiff drink with all this.

Mary I really don't know how you would go about proving anything. All the players who might have known anything are long gone. My father's sister "ran away" to Glasgow to marry in 1940 when she was 21 - I suspect because her mother didn't approve of the marriage.

I can't believe he made up his parents' names. You'd hardly dream up a name like Transfield...so yes it is a possibility that it is George Clark who is his father and not George Harvey...Mary Ann married 04 March 1866. The only son that could be Frank is Frederick born around 1875 so age is wrong for "our" Frank.

What I think is Frederick is married in Spittalfields in 1911.

So sorry not sure where you can go now. What happened to your mum when Lottie went into the poorhouse? And where did Jim and Irene go when they came out of the poorhouse?

Jude

Mary

Do you have Lottie' full DOB? I asked earlier and cant see a response, sorry if Ive missed it?

She may have taken up with another man and assumed his name, her death may have been recorded using his name

Sorry gin for delay.Dont know date just that it was MAY 1893.regards Mary.

Hi Jude.I meant he just changed his last name.Irene was raised by her g mother from birth as Lottie caught Spanish flu after giving birth.My mother was in w/house till 1937 then went into domestic service in Sgegness where my father met her in 1940 when based there during war.he brought her back to Scotland where they were married.At that time Jim was sent to a home in Bedfordshire, then a training school in London.when war broke out he joined royal navy when he was 17half.thankfuly he survived unscathed.In 1952 he married and they went to Newzealand for five yrs.when they returned he went to work at rolls Royce for 35 yrs.it was only then he traced my mother.Mary

Mary - do you actually have the marriage certificate?

Can you check his mother's name - is it MARGARET Ann or Mary Ann?

Jude

OK..in 1911 census George Clark is a fruiterer :-)

There are far too many deaths that could be Mary Ann and George between 1911 and 1918

So it seems he gave his mothers correct name in full (had some credits on Scotland's People so downloaded the image); He altered his father's name from Clark to Harvey but kept his father's occupation.

And he changed his name from Frederick to Frank; added a few years to his age - appears to have been born 1875 not 1872; and neglected to say he was not a bachelor.....

In 1901 Frederick is visiting in Lincolnshire. Another visitor is Mary Ann Stamper. Ada E(mma) Chapman wife to head Thomas was Ada Emma Stamper

In 1911, Frederick is married to Mary Ann they have two sons, one with Stamper as a middle name. They married in 1902 in Rochford and are living in Prittlewell Essex (same as George and Mary Ann his parents).

It is maybe telling that Lottie's youngest child was named Frederick James (after his father)

So it really looks like he was married to Mary Ann when he married Lottie :-(

But why he stuck around for eight years and then disappeared leaving her in the workhouse is a mystery we can't solve.

According to marriage cert it.s MARY ANN. and GEORGE was fruit and veg seller could be a market'Mary.

Mary

My next step would be buy Lottie' birth certificate to check the full DOB. She might be found under another name using that info

I was updating my post when the next two came in :-)

I agree with Gins...get the birth certificate

Hi Mary - can see by the amount of posts on various sites in the last few years that you are no nearer the truth....

I guess you know this:

Spalding Poor Law Union was officially formed on 30th November 1835. Its operation was overseen by an elected Board of Guardians, 25 in number, representing its 8 constituent parishes as listed below (figures in brackets indicate numbers of Guardians if more than one):

County of Lincoln: Cowbit, Gosberton (4), Moulton (3), Pinchbeck (4), Quadring (2), Spalding (8), Surfleet (2), Weston.
Later addition: Deeping St Nicholas (1862).

The population falling within the Union at the 1831 census had been 15,579 with parishes ranging in size from Cowbit (population 556) to Spalding itself (6,497). The average annual poor-rate expenditure for the period 1833-35 had been £10,967 or 14s.1d. per head.

The new Spalding union workhouse was built in 1836-7 on the eastern side of Pinchbeck Road to the north of Spalding. The architect was Bryan Browning who was also responsible for the Bourne and Stamford workhouses. It was designed to accommodate 300 inmates and the Poor Law Commissioners authorized an expenditure of £5,350 for its construction. Its location and layout are shown on the 1903 map below:


Spalding workhouse site, 1903.

The workhouse was constructed in red brick and had a detached infirmary and school.

After 1930, the former workhouse became a Public Assistance Institution known as the Myntling Home (or Mintling House) and later as Pinchbeck Road Hospital.

Nothing now remains of the buildings.

If your uncle Jim remembers visiting his mother I wonder if she actually ever did leave there alive?

Jude

Hi Jude you are amazeing.You will never know how much this means to me that u got the evidence of Frank,s bigamy. I just knew this was the case.And you are right about my uncle,s name.Ialways wondered why he wasent named after his dad as was very common then.i will phone jim and tell him he wont be surprised but relieved.Poor Irene has been suffering from dementia this past year so she wont be told.thank you so much again.I,M Ging to my daughter,s for couple days be back weekend.best regards MARY.

It's been a fun and absorbing mystery. I think we are as close as we can be that our supposition is erring on the side of fact :-)

I guess when they married in Scotland in 1918, it would never be thought that 95 years later you could click a button and find Mary Ann Transfield :-) Or the census records.

The only thing that bugs me is WHY they went to Scotland? I thought at first Lottie must have been pregnant with Irene. But if they had to live there for six weeks before the marriage in March then that can't be true. Unless she was pregnant and miscarried and then conceived Irene pretty quickly. But still WHY Scotland when his family were in Essex?

I'd still invest in Lottie's birth certificate...an actual date of birth MAY help in finding her death although I think that she never left that poorhouse.

I hope it makes your uncle Jim happy :-) My dad is 87 next month. My mum died at Christmas last year and would have been 88 next month. I had done each of them a family history album - my mum in 2011 and my dad in 2012. He didn't get round to reading it until after the funeral in January and has revelled in what I have found for him.

Incidentally, a quarter of my family are from Scotland :-)