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Death cert info......................

Register Number

Date and Place of Death

Sex

Age

Occupation

Cause Of Death

Name and Surname of the Deceased

Informant's Details

Date of Registration

Registrar's Signature
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After 1969, exact DOB and place of birth.

And, in the case of a married woman, her maiden name

BUT.....in all cases, info is 'as known' to the informant, and may be inaccurate

If he said his father was Abraham, and he's living in a family whose head is named Abraham...........that's pretty conclusive...............

Census enumerators wrote the names as they 'heard' them

Potty

The county boundary actually runs through Todmorden.................hence it's 'moving' from time to time

Going backwards with the John Stansfield in the 1891, here he is in 1871, with a sister Elizabeth. So, if the marriage cert gives Elizabeth's father as John, occupation Grocer, that would confirm the marriage:


1871 England Census
about Elizabeth Stansfield
Name: Elizabeth Stansfield
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John Stansfield
Mother's Name: Emma Stansfield
Where born:
Todmorden, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish:
Todmorden and Walsden

Ecclesiastical parish:
Harley Wood All Saints

County/Island: Lancashire

Registration District:
Todmorden

Sub-registration District:
Todmorden

John Stansfield 52
Emma Stansfield 46
John Stansfield 22
Elizabeth Stansfield 19
Matildia Stansfield 17
Emma Stansfield 14
Barker Stansfield 8
Ada Stansfield 5
Robert Stansfield 2

By the way, have you noticed that in this census Todmorden is in Lancashire not Yorkshire - it one of those places that seems to "move" from county to county!

Yes, Stephanie, look at all possible spellings! I searched just using a wild card, ie Hell*; that will bring up all names beginning with Hell but the name could also be mis-spelt as Halliwell!

Abraham Halliwell was a farmer, so possible at the time of the marriage, Jonathan was working with him.

An English death cert will give date, place and cause of death and the name of the informant, who may or may not be a relative.

Elizabeth's brother, John, on the 1911 gives his occupation as Retired Grocer, this could possible be him in 1891 (his occupation is given then as Carter but his father is a Grocer and his mother is Emma (same as the witness on the marriage cert. What are the fathers' names on that cert?:


1891 England Census
about John Stansfield
Name:John Stansfield
Age:42
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1849
Relation:Son

Father's Name: John Stansfield

Mother's Name: Emma Stansfield
Where born:
Todmorden, Lancashire, England
Todmorden

County/Island:
Yorkshire

Country:
England


John Stansfield 73
Emma Stansfield 66
John Stansfield 42
Barker Stansfield 28
Ada Stansfield 25
Robert Stansfield 22

Jonathan's father's name on the marriage certificate is Abraham Hellowell which fits you previous post. Would you be 100% sure that Abraham was his father?

I wasn't even looking under Hellowell, only Helliwell so can we assume that there was a mistake and I should continue to trace all different variations?

Well what I'm beginning to learn is that nothing is certain!
Forgive me but I keep picking this up as and when I had time and what I'm learning is that you have to plough on when you have the momentum otherwise you forget the links. I ordered the marriage cert about a year ago and had more or less discarded it, silly now I know. Your help has been a huge boost thank you, I really appreciate it.

(I did find a local historian online who listed him as a pub licensee so I could go down that route to see how long he held it for perhaps?)

Seth's birth cert says born Jan 29th 1883 in Luddenden Foot.
Father Jonathan Helliwell, profession, Inn Keeper.
Mother Elizabeth Helliwell (formerly Stansfield)
residence Luddenden Foot

The witnesses on the marriage cert are Peter Cropper and Emma Stansfield

One other question I have is when you order a death certificate, does it give you the cause of death and who registered it etc? Can you find out much more from these than where and who is what I mean?

What was JONATHAN's father's name on his marriage cert?

Well, Chris, that baptism certainly eliminates the 1853 birth

People changed occupations then, just as they do now

Seth's birth cert names these two as his parents.....not sure why you are doubting the info

As you have the marriage cert, I'm at a loss to know why you said you couldn't find a marriage

I would have saved myself a lot of time if you'd given that info at the start

Stephanie - my father was a fitter and turner before he went into the pub trade so occupations can change.

It would have been useful if you'd mentioned earlier that you already had that certificate but weren't sure if it was right. Who were the witnesses on it and what were the father's names/occupations on it?

We could always try looking back for that couple, even if just to eliminate them.

Reggie, Potty, Chris thanks,
I have already ordered the marriage certificate recording Jonathan Hello(i)well and Elizabeth Stansfield marrying in Halifax on April 5th 1881.
Unfortunately this was a dead end as the occupation of Jonathan on this certificate was farmer and I know he was a publican so it didn't really match. Do you think that I shouldn't have discounted it?

I also have the birth cert for Jonathan Helliwell as you have listed
Births Dec 1853 (>99%)
HELLIWELL Jonathan Halifax 9a 410
it states that his parents were Jonathan and Hannah Helliwell (address Dean Mill Midgley) and that Jonathan was a paper maker.

Perhaps I need to order the other ceritifcate you mentioned as
Births Sep 1854 (>99%)
HELLAWELL Jonathan Halifax 9a 433
so that I can be sure this is or isn't him?

Worth a shot......

Buy the marriage cert, Stephanie........it will cost £9.25 ordered on line from the GRO, and will solve the puzzle for you

Sadly that marriage isn't on Ancestry .....

sorry Marieceleste, (what a school girl error), yes it was 1853 not 1953
Seth was my father's grandfather.

If SETH is 100% your antecedent, by definition, his father is also..............

Just wondering.....

Is the marriage on the West Yorks record on Ancestry?

One female missing from this record................

Marriages Jun 1881 (>99%)
HELLOWELL Jonathan Halifax 9a 731
ROBERTS Amelia Halifax 9a 731
Wilson Brice Halifax 9a 731

EDIT

STANSFIELD Elizabeth Halifax 9a *1

Buy the cert..............it will clarify everything

What are the parents' names on the 1853 birth cert?

Baptism (Find My Past)
Day:23
Month:Oct
Year:1853
Forename:Jonathan
Surname:Halliwell
Relationship:Son
Fathers Forename:Jonathan
Fathers Occupation:Paper Maker
Fathers Abode:Midgley
Mothers Forename:Hannah
Mothers Abode:
Birth Date:27 Sept 1853
Place:Luddenden, St Mary
County:Yorkshire
Notes:
Record source:Luddenden Baptisms
Data provider:Calderdale Family History Society

(above if any help anywhere!)

Chris :)