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I don't have a certificate for Charles' marriage to Edith Maud Valentine. I assume Charles' father would be shown as George Ward. On the certificate I do have George's occupation is (I think) Carman - whatever that may be. I am pretty sure that Charles came from Luton originally, but he was living in Worksop when he married Hilda May Gibson. At that time he was a Tailor's Cutter. The marriage was on 27 March 1926 at which time Charles was 38 year old - so he was presumably born in 1887 or 1888 but I can't trace a birth record for a Charles Thomas Ward in either Luton or Worksop - only for a Charles Ward.

Mike

Welcome back Mike - glad to see you've made it. :-)

It may be worth going onto the National Archives website and ordering the divorce papers - they are not available online to view as Ancestry only cover up to about 1911.

Do you have any idea if Charles had any brothers/sisters - it just may help in finding the family on census prior to his first marriage? As you can tell from what has been posted so far, we are not having much luck in finding him with his family either.

He may not have been registered with a second name, sometimes people add another name later,or at a christening. Our ancestors never make it easy! Another possibility, he was registered under his mother's name if born before she married, then took on her husbands name.

There are 3 trees with Charles on ancestry - none have his details other than his marriage to Edith Valentine and their daughter's details. So no help there either, other than they have him born 1885 so slightly older than previously thought - but that is probably from the 1911 census posted earlier in the thread.

Thanks Flip

Not aware of any brother or sisters. The only information I have on him comes from his granddaughters and I believe he had disappeared from the scene before any of them were born - and apparently nobody talked about him and the assumption was he had gone to prison - although I think this was no more than gossip.

I think he had a daughter by his first marriage - Edith Lilian born in about 1910. - but have not managed to trace hat record yet.

Best thing to get hold of would be his birth certificate - but I am not sure enough about when he was born.

Mike

Not getting any further with this tonight - so I shall leave it until tomorrow - thanks for your help.

Carman/Charman/Carrier/ Carter/Cartman

Driver of (horse-drawn) vehicles for transporting goods. Carmen were often employed by railway companies for local deliveries and collections of goods and parcels. Modern day van driver. A Carter typically drove a light two wheeled carriage. Also sometimes someone who drove horse-drawn trams was called a Carman.

Today they would be called white van drivers



One of many sites that have old occupations
http://rmhh.co.uk/occup/index.html

One of the trees on Ancestry has Edith Lilian, the birth marriage and death is the same as that posted by Prickly Holly on the first page of this thread on 4 May 14:21.

Think this is a possibility - you mentioned Luton earlier.

Births Mar 1883 (>99%)
Ward Charles Thomas Luton 3b 459

1891:
George Ward
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Louis Ward
Gender: Male
Where born: Luton, Bedfordshire, England
Civil parish: Luton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew
Town: Luton
County/Island: Bedfordshire
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: (Ostler, which would tie in with Carman)

View image
Registration district: Luton
Sub-registration district: Luton
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1271
Folio: 160
Page Number: 7
Household Members:
Name Age
George Ward 35
Louis Ward 29
Kate Ward 10
George Ward 9
Charles Ward 8 <<<<<<<<
Lily Ward 6
Harry Brown 20

Same family in 1901:

George Ward
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Louisa Ward
Gender: Male
Where born: Luton, Bedfordshire, England
Civil parish: Luton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew
Town: Luton
County/Island: Bedfordshire
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation: (Carman)

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Luton
Sub-registration district: Luton
ED, institution, or vessel: 27
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 215
Piece: 1517
Folio: 125
Page Number: 38
Household Members:
Name Age
George Ward 40
Louisa Ward 40
Lily Ward 17
Kate Ward 20
Louie Ward 8
Charles Ward 15
William Ward 18
Stanley Ward 4

??

Marriages Mar 1879 (>99%)
Brown Louisa Luton 3b 504 <<<<
PARROTT Elizabeth Luton 3b 504
Tallon Jesse Burrows Luton 3b 504
TALLON Jesses Burrows Luton 3b 504
Talon Jesse Burrows Luton 3b 504
WARD George Luton 3b 504 <<<<

There's quite a big age gap between them, which may account for his different ages of each census.

Louisa Ward
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: George Ward
Gender: Female
Where born: Bedfordshire, England
Civil parish: Luton
County/Island: Bedfordshire
Country: England
Street Address: 48 John St
Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Luton
Sub-registration district: Luton
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1650
Folio: 118
Page Number: 24
Household Members:
Name Age
George Ward 30
Louisa Ward 19
Kate Ward (10 months)
Lodgers:
Sophia Elton 28
Jane Elton 10
Hezekiah Readman 42

George has dropped more years from his age! Now states he was born Kensworth, the 1881 stated Herts but other 2 stated Luton. George's occupation Carman. Married 31 years, 8 children - 1 has died.

Louisa Ward
Age in 1911: 51
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Luton, Bedfordshire, England
Civil parish: Luton
County/Island: Bedfordshire
Country: England
Street Address: 73 Burr St, Luton, Beds
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Hand Sewer
Registration district: Luton
Registration District Number: 178
Sub-registration district: Luton
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Household schedule number: 266
Piece: 9003
Household Members:
Name Age
George Ward 51
Louisa Ward 51
Louisa Ward 18
Stanley Ward 14
Ivy Ward 9 (grandchild)

Good mornign

I had picked up on the 1883 Charles Thomas Ward - but was put off because it did not mattch his age according to his wedding certificate. But I suppose you can lie about your age when you are getting married ?! I need to get back to the granddaugther who gave me the original information as she said she thought he was born in the 1890s !!! Also see if she can give me any information on brothers or sisters - there has never been any suggestion there were any - and it is beginning to look as though he may have had a few.

Think I might also have to get hold of marriage certificate for Edith Maud Valentine - see what details Charles provided for that marriage ! I suppose it is possible he made it look as though he was younger than he was when he married Hilda May Gibson - may have lied to her about his age !!!

This is an intriguing one.

Mike

Yes, it could be a good idea to get that first marriage certificate, although he may have lied about his age on that one as well. Not 100% sure the census posted are correct, but they are the nearest I can find for him with a matching father with the right occupation.

Until I started this hobby I thought it was only women who lied about their age, but I've found men are just as bad if not worse!!

Is this Hilda May and her family?

Hilda May Gibson
Age in 1911: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1892
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Worksop, Nottinghamshire, England
Civil parish: Worksop
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Country: England
Street Address: 52 Cheapside Worksop Notts
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Shop Mangeres
Registration district: Worksop
Registration District Number: 427
Sub-registration district: Worksop
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Household schedule number: 211
Piece: 20235
Household Members:
Name Age
George Gibson 73
Alice Gibson 61
Walter Gibson 29
Charles Gibson 22
Hilda May Gibson 19
Violet Gibson 10

Can't find Charles's death with any degree of certainty, the information on a death cert is only as good as the informant knows - and if he lied about his age throughout his life it's really difficult to find a death.

When you speak to his granddaughter try to see if she knows when and where he was last heard of, and what year his last child was born.

Yes indeed - that is Hilda May's family. There were a few other sisters, but I think they had flown the nest by 1911.

I shall be seeing Charlie's granddaughter later today - so I will see if can recall any more details - even rumours - you never know they might help !!

Mike

The best source of info (for a starting point) is always family info/gossip - then you go out and find the proof. Guess Charles created a lot of gossip, married, divorced (maybe) then re-married and then disappears - quite a character.

Any info, no matter how insignificant you think it to be, can give clues which we can try to check out.

According to the 1911 census Hilda May's parents had 13 children, 8 of which were still alive in 1911 - so yes many of them must have "flown the nest" by 1911. But I haven't tried to check this out as you are looking for Charles Ward, so I'm assuming you have Hilda's family history.

yes - absolutely.

I will let you know what I find out (if anything) later.

Hi - I'm back !

Have spoken this evening to Pauline who is one of Charles Ward's granddaughters and managed to tease a bit more information out of her - some of which she had forgotten completely until now.

First of all though, I was mistaken as to when he disappeared - Pauline remembers him being around in her early years - which would actually be during the war and just after. By this time, he would be into his 60s. He was an expert tailor. She thinks he died some time in the 1960s. She seems to think his birthday was in January.

Armed with this information I think the best fit is Charles Thomas Ward, born 1883 in Luton between January and March. A Charles Ward did die in 1966 aged 83 - which fits. One problem with all this is that his marriage certificate for Hilda May gives his age as 38 (b 1887-1888 ?). The marriage record online for Edith Maud in 1909 gives his age as 26 - fits with 1883 ! But the record on the 1911 census gives his age as 26 - born 1885 and gives his place of birth as Bulwell, Notts!!!!!

Not sure where we go from there - I shall order a copy of the 1909 marriage certificate and take it from there.

Mike

For some reason I can't find that 1911 census on Ancestry, not sure why, wonder if there is a bad transcription. Have you checked the image to make sure it has been transcribed correctly?