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HeyJudeB4Beatles,

Well still trying to trace my Gt. grandfather Povey's birth; got his marriage and death cert, but no birth. He is on the Census for 1880 with my Gt. grandmother and their only child my grandfather Thomas Charles. On this Census says he was born Brighton, Sussex. Spent 70 pounds on incorrect certs and posted information on here and all to no avail. Went to all lengths and could not find his birth in 1858/1859 with all stops pulled out by helpers and we came to the conclusion he was just not registered.

He put on his marriage certificate that his father's name was Charles Henry Povey, but again could not find a link. Sometimes you just have to move on and say he was elusive. I did find a Thomas Henry Povey in the Boys Home in Brighton, but who knows if it was him. This one came from Ireland, which may well be him, but a needle in a haystack situation so have left it until I am less busy on the Russian side.

Would you believe that due to their situation before the revolution I am having more luck than UK - full letters, personal handwrittten applications for this and that - full work history at the Vintorg Wine and Spirits shop (still producing Vodka) and pre-Soviet history of family life, etc. Enormous amount of information, but all in Russian language of course. I have approached Genes to research going into the Baltic and Russian states with all that entails as I feel there is a gap that genes could pick up on. This is because there were so many who escaped the revolution and entered UK changed their names and now wish to trace their relatives and roots. No response!!

What about that Cap then - WOW is the word on that - any history to go with it?

Thanks so much for sharing this with me and again to all those helpers who continue to share their knowledge with those requesting help - soooooooooo appreciated.

Sappho

Sappho - thanks...

I never knew him - nor my mum's dad. But I am so proud to be a Llewellyn and to have the photo (and others) and the cap itself which is beautiful (and now 112 years old). And it is a rugby league cap which, given the age, makes it all the more special.

But at least you knew she was and never was so to speak.

It is one of the things I have found so informing and yet infuriating in the 1911 census. They asked how many live births, living children and dead children

And as a result I have huge holes in families where children have been born and died between censuses...to date I have spent about £100 on "punts"!!!!!!

HeyJudeB4Beatles,

Just getting up - this morning so good evening to you.

I think it very sad, but you know how you wonder about things and then with a little bit of help it all comes together. In the short time of an evening I found there was another sister and then found she did not survive infancy.

You are so right, without the help of all the genes helpers I should not have known anything more about Jane and what happened to her. When you start searching for your family you find sadness as well as happiness in the lives of those who went before.

Loved the photo of your grandad - proud times on the field I bet!

Thanks you for your comments.

Sappho

I was about to say that St Saviour is the church in Southwark so would fit with the birth/baptism and the death...having found another Walworth Jane census I had already thought she was maybe "the other Jane".

It's sad she died but at least it explains why you had never heard of her and why she's never found on a census :-(

OMG this does look like we have her. I am prepared to send for this certificate along with the birth certificate as I think this sad event could be the answer. I think this way due to the fact that she was not mentioned in the family stories and there was no insurance cover for her. How very sad on this ANZAC Day ops a tear!

I think ChristinaS. this is her. I cannot think or hope otherwise as I have searched and she does not appear anywhere - it had crossed my mind.

Thank you all, but I will send for the certs as it is important to me to have the facts and not any guesswork or assumption.

I have to be pleased as I have so much coming out of Russia on my family on my father's side that will keep my mind off this.

Many thanks all of you for the spontaneous replies with so much good information. It is very such appreciated.

From Christchurch NZ goodnight and thanks again.

Sappho

:-0 :-(

This looks likely:


England & Wales FreeBMD Death Index

Name: Jane Turner
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1890
Age at Death: 2
Registration district: St Saviour Southwark
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1d
Page: 20 :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-(

Thank you Christina, just grasping at straws I suppose. I do wonder what happened to Jane - nothing just nothing that I can find. If you just put in the surname Turner its huge and then I have tried Matilda, J.M. M.J and nothing at all. Not even a passing - she has vanished.

A vain attempt at J.M Couthard just in case she took their name for a reason again nothing.

Baffled isn't the word.

Thank you so much - you really are a great team. I shall keep looking at this was a surprise to find she even existed!

Sappho

Afraid I have nothing positive to add here, just to say that, in 1901, Jane would only have been 13 years old - so unlikely to have got married then.

Also, I agree with MarieCeleste, that if you're born in Clarendon Street (which I think is now Law Street) you wouldn't say you were born in Walworth, on the census. Walworth comes under the borough of Southwark, but it's not exactly the same place.

So the Jane who is a servant on the 1911 census is probably the daughter of George.

Ok then if that is the case, your find could be correct and sh was in service with Coulthard family.

This is looking very likely as both MarieCeleste and you K agree on the household names. Wonder what happened to her after that? I would say that it would have been a bit of a step up for Jane in the Turner family to be a domestic servant, which I hope it is her.

Where to now, perhaps I should get the birth cert. But why no marriage or anything further for Jane - I am puzzled!

Yes they are the same. Boundary's were always changing
in county's around London

Hi folks,

I have found a marriage - Matilda Jane in Bolton Lancashire,

Name Matilda Jane Turner
Year of Marriage 1901
Quarter of Marriage Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration District Bolton
Registration County Lancashire
Spouse's Surname Only available for records after 1912
Volume Number 8C
Volume Page 426


Possibly married John William Howorth - it may be a connection I am not sure. Just checking it a bit further. Do you think a bit far stretched to connect.

any ideas?

If she is the young woman in service (which makes sense) what happened to her after that. I am very surprised we have no knowledge of her in the family and my mother never mentioned her.

Can you help me what are the Reference numbers given - to what do they refer and is that something I can connect to?

Sappho

Marie Celeste

I am using GR does another site give another 1911 entry for Jane Matilda Turner

Fredk,

Would Surrey, Walworth and Southwark be in the same area about. Cold this be an error?

Yes, K that is the family minus Jane - where is she??

Sappho

So we have two births Jane Matilda Turner born 1888. I have established one and eliminated the other.

The one that is probably my Jane M Turner is 1d. 35 as the months match that of the Baptism date entered officially. The other birth in Southwark also is 1d 115 is for the Oct/Nov/Dec period and is not my Jane in all porbablity.

Does this help at all.

Sappho

Hi Marie Celeste,

Just checking something - back in a minute!

Yes, correct. You see I had trouble even finding this originally because I was looking for Johanna and see how they have spelt her name Jerema. Another time it has been Jemina. The family did not read or write - many a cross shown! My Johanna was the first to go to school and I have her school attendance record.

Meanwhile, we do not have Jane Matilda - I am so puzzled. Unless we can turn up anything I might just have to send for that birth cert to see if I am on the right track. It is funny because I was suspicious as to why there was such a gap between children as my Johann being the eldest child born 1880, then the gaps which was not usual.

So elusive Jane - where are you?

Thank you as always for your help - any other places I could look. I wonder as she may have married out of London but I cannot find a link to her in Marriages and Deaths.

Sappho

I'm wondering if the girl in service is the daughter of George and Mary as her birthplace in 1911 is specifically Walworth where that baptism took place:

COULTHARD, Abram Head Married M 41 1870 Pharmacist Cumberland Silloth
COULTHARD, Elizabeth Wife Married7 years F 39 1872 Beds Leighton Buzzard
COULTHARD, Hilda Hart Daughter Married F 3 1908 Cambs Sawston
TURNER, Jane Matilda Servant Single F 22 1889 General Servant Domestic Surrey Walworth

RG number: RG14 Piece: 9143
Reference: RG14PN9143 RG78PN485 RD182 SD1 ED6 SN52
Registration District: Linton
Sub District: Duxford
Enumeration District: 6
Parish: Sawston

Address: High Street Sawston Cambridgeshire County: Cambridgeshire

Sappho

This is the full entry and the only one I could find. Of course it could be the other Jane Matilda Turner

1911 Census Household Record
Household information
Address High Street Sawston Cambridgeshire
Parish Sawston
Town Sawston
Type of Building House & Shop
Number of Rooms Six Rooms
Inhabited Y
Reference RG14PN9143 RG78PN485 RD182 SD1 ED6 SN52
Administrative County Cambridgeshire
Registration District Linton
Registration Sub District Duxford
Enumeration District 6
Householder 1
Name Abram Coulthard
Relationship to Head of Household Head
Condition / Years Married Married
Gender M
Age 41
Estimated Year of Birth 1870
Occupation Pharmacist
Employed Y
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Cumberland Silloth
Householder 2
Name Elizabeth Coulthard
Relationship to Head of Household Wife
Condition / Years Married Married / 7 Years
Total Children Born Alive 1
Children Still Living 1
Gender F
Age 39
Estimated Year of Birth 1872
Employed N
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Beds Leighton Buzzard
Householder 3
Name Hilda Hart Coulthard
Relationship to Head of Household Daughter
Condition / Years Married Married
Gender F
Age 3
Estimated Year of Birth 1908
Occupation Juvenile
Employed N
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Cambs Sawston
Householder 4
Name Jane Matilda Turner
Relationship to Head of Household Servant
Condition / Years Married Single
Gender F
Age 22
Estimated Year of Birth 1889
Occupation General Servant Domestic
Employed Y
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Surrey Walworth