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Thank you both so much for all your efforts, very much appreciated.

James Patrick's mother was Jane Ann Lehan nee Hanna, (widowed). She married James Fleming in 1903, James Patrick was born in 1904 and she died when he was 4½. James sr remarried Mary Ann Flannagan in 1916 and had a daughter Catherine. Mary Ann already had a daughter Mary who has led me a merry dance too. (See Flannagan/Fleming thread if you want tying in knots too!!) :-S

Who was James Patrick's mother?

When and where did she marry his father?

The wording on the birth certificate that says Catherine Fleming "formerly" Conroy just means that Conroy was her maiden name. This is the wording on most birth certificates.

If she had been married to someone else before she married Simon Fleming the certificate would have said ....Catherine Fleming, late (first married name), formerly Conroy.

Kath. x

James sr did marry again in 1916 and had a daughter Catherine. I am researching this with newly found cousin once removed, Catherine's son.

Sorry, busy day at work so haven't been able to get on. Yes you all have the right lines. There is a plethora of Catherine James and Mary Ann's in the family so this is tying me up in knots! Not helped by the fact that Agnes Donnelly's grandmother married the father of James Fleming senior's second wife, and they also have a mysterious Mary Ann in there family !! So my head is in a complete spin.

I have two marriage certificates for James b. 1872, one giving father as Simon, a puddler, and another saying father is James, a puddler. James' birth certificate gives parents as Catharine Fleming formerly Conroy and Simon James Fleming.

Yes Reggie, the son James from North Ormesby was my lovely Grandad :)

I wonder why Catharine would be 'formerly' Conroy? But as I can't find any marriage for Catharine and Simon/James then I don't know.

I think I have worked back from Helen (going by her surname when clicking on her name) and found that she does seem to descend from the James Patrick born 1904 - but Helen needs to confirm this.

Kath. x

Helen needs to confirm how she worked back through her 'line'...............all of the info posted could be for the wrong James

There are quite a few marriages in Middlesbrough for the name James Fleming after 1911 so it's difficult to know if he married again unless Helen knows if he did remarry and who to.

This could possibly be the marriage of the child born 1904:-

Name: FLEMING, James P
Registration district: Middlesbrough
County: Yorkshire
Year of registration: 1928
Quarter of registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Spouse's last name: Donnelly
Volume no: 9D
Page no: 1336

Name: DONNELLY, Agnes H
Registration district: Middlesbrough
County: Yorkshire
Year of registration: 1928
Quarter of registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Spouse's last name: Fleming
Volume no: 9D
Page no: 1336

Kath. x

Unless James married again after 1911, he fathered only one legitimate child

The child on 1911 census?

Births Sep 1904 (>99%)
Fleming James Patrick Middlesbro' 9d 653

You say that Simon and Catherine are your great, great grandparents. Is their son James your great grandfather? If so which of his children is your grandparent - just so we know we have the right James in the census.

Kath. x

You asked about ordering certs........

On line from the GRO........they cost £9.25 including postage

Is this James? And is his son also your direct line?

1911 England Census
Name: James Fleming
Age in 1911: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1873
Relation to Head: Boarder
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Stockton, Durham, England
Civil parish: Middlesbrough
County/Island: Yorkshire-North Riding
Country: England
Street Address: 50 Rockcliffe Street Middlesboro
Marital Status: Widowed
Occupation: Labourer
Registration district: Middlesbrough
Registration District Number: 535
Sub-registration district: Middlesbrough West
ED, institution, or vessel: 16
Piece: 29279
Household Members:
Name Age
George Beaumont 36
Edith Beaumont 29
George Beaumont 11
Thomas Beaumont 8
Emily Beaumont 6
Edith Beaumont 4
Lilian Beaumont 2
James Fleming 38
James Fleming 6 b. North Ormesby

You say you've 'assumed' that an 1872 birth was your relation............do you have his marriage cert to confirm his father's name and occupation?

As there were no penalties until 1875 for not registering births, any child born before then may not have had its birth registered.

Who/when/where did JAMES marry?

No joy with a birth for Mary Ann - there is a Mary Conroy b1856 but I can follow her through the census to 1881.

Sorry Helen - the 1856 birth I posted can't be correct as Simon would only have been 11. We need to look for a birth for a Mary Ann Conroy. Catharine seems to have been very young when she was born.

But she is registered as a Fleming though - thank you. Silly question but where do I order that from ? I have only ordered from teesvalley-indexes before.

Thank you

Mary Ann's birth cert might answer the question:

Name: Mary Ann Fleming
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1856
Registration district: Durham
Inferred County: Durham
Volume: 10a
Page: 213 (click to see others on page)

Whoops! Of course Mary Ann cannot be Simon's daughter!