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one person (2 accounts) here at GR has John Trease 1741 and also Samuel, William and Richard in their tree

(search for Trease 1745 +/- 5 years ... and search also under Treise)

it would be interesting to know what that person knows about that John

I knew you would pull that to pieces and put it together again JC...and so speedy too :-D

well .............. it's a theory :-D

now whom are we trying to connect this person with???

and

MrDaff says:

John died in Sydney on 1 July 1823, aged 82. This is the first indication of his d.o.b (c. 1741). (source: Aus BMD).


but Chris quotes:

TRACE, John - 1754-1823 Sydney.


MrDaff's source seems to be a death record.

Chris's source was:
http://www.australian-english-genealogy.com/Charlotteconvicts%202.html
and there's no source there of course, but possibly the ship's records?


https://familyhistory.bdm.nsw.gov.au/lifelink/familyhistory/search?1

894/1823 V1823894 8
TRACE JOHN
AGE 82
(age given in place of parents' names)

As Sue is in touch with MR Daff I will let her answer that......I have a feeling he can't get on here at the mo.

Quite a few items relating on google, info. probably known, as also on below)

http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexsearch/keyname.aspx


http://www.fellowshipfirstfleeters.org.au/ship_charlotte.htm

http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_convicts_on_the_First_Fleet

Chris :)


FIRST FLEETERS GRAVES Windsor and Richmond Gazette (NSW : 1888 - 1954) Friday 8 October 1926 p 6

In La Perouse Cemetery we find the graves of James Squire, who brewed our first beer; John Trace, 1823...

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/search?adv=y

got it thanks, I'll nag him tonight :-D

Correct me if I am wrong but, I thought the Australians gave names of parents when a person died. Aren't they free online somewhere?

Ladies, hello again :-D

Thank you for all the above - trawling through the Tree, notes etc the 'top down' I have is
John Trace b.c1729 married Sarah Piddler b. c1729. They had a son, Joseph b. c1749 who married Susannah Lang b. c1749. They in turn had two (known) children, John b. c1769 and Elizabeth b. c1771.

Daff did get some additional info, but I can't find what, and was certain 'Aussie John' was related - perhaps Josph's brother. I don't know.

The Aussie records are good and show this 'criminal' married Mary Rose, they had a son George in 1796 and John died in 1823 supposedly at the age of 82 - not sure about the last bit - Mary Rose married again in 1824 and had at least 2 other children...in her 50's at that time..maybe?

John arrived in Botany in 1788, she in 1790.

My gut feeling is this was a 'wannabe' link, but you knew Daff, so I dunno !!!!

Mr D.

Susan# - the parents' names are only on NSW death certs / in the online index if someone gave them when the person died

in the early days, for people who lived to old age, there was often no one around who knew their parents' names, if they themselves did

it's possible though that he would have given his parents' names when he married ... but the marriage doesn't seem to be in the NSW index

that is what I find odd about the 1741ish birthdate though ... it makes him 50 when he married, while wife Mary had children in the 1820s so she could not have been 20 yet at the time of the 1790 marriage!

it's certain that this is the same Mary?

3284/1824 V18243284 3B
KNIGHT JAMES
TRACE MARY A
district CA

the only child whose birth shows in the index is

686/1833 V1833686 17
KNIGHT CHARLES E
father JAMES
mother MARY A

1833?? no, that just makes no sense at all ... over 40 years after her marriage to John Trace, nope, this is alllll wrong ... she would have been not in her 50s but in her 60s

son George in 1796

145/1796 V1796145 148
TRACE GEORGE
father JOHN
mother MARY

I wonder whether that Mary A Trace who married James Knight wasn't really a daughter of John and Mary who married in 1790

I would want to see the info on that marriage certificate ...


and I'd recommend DNA testing but we need a male-line Trace descendant of both Joseph and Aussie John :-)

Wow Mrs....Your brain is on fire.

Mr D......JC is a trusted GRer so could you let her have details so that she can work backwards.?

Susan, all I have is in the first post on this thread - dated 5 Feb 2013. If u can't see it let me know and i'll copy / paste.x

I've found the 1841 JT that SC mentioned on Ancestry (public tree) and can't fit what is on the tree to anything Daff has....I'm still not happy with age at death as mentioned above, it's odd.....

MrD ... Susan# means about Daff's connection to the Traces, the personal stuff :-)

(but I've got that sussed now I think thanks to Susan#)

what I'm not seeing is what persuaded Daff that Aussie John belonged in her tree

there are loads and loads and loads of people with all the many variations of that surname in Cornwall and Devon, probably all related one way or another!

I'm also just skeptical about Aussie John's age ... 45 was a little old to be stealing mutton and getting transported, and then being married off in Australia at the age of 50 ... even if it wasn't to somebody who couldn't have been born yet :-D

so yes, the Ancestry tree has


John Trease
Birth 1741 in St Gennys. Cornwall, England
Death 1774 in St Gennys. Cornwall, England

wife Ann Smeeth 1744 –
children
Ann Trease 1766 – 1840
John Trease 1768 – 1772
William Trease 1771 – 1856


so that really does rule out him ... and his son John

couldn't figure out that death ... but here we are, buried after the new year (or it was 1774 according to our current calendar, I can never figure that out)

Day Month 02-Jan
Year 1775
Parish Or Reg District Gennys, St.
Forename John
Surname TRAYSE, sen.


I would obtain the 1823 Australian death certificate (or a transcription e.g. from Joy Murrin for half the price) and see whether it really does say age 82, and what family info it gives

and maybe the Mary Trace marriage to Knight would say something about her age or previous marriage/kids or parents

that's the only way I can see that any other info might be found

Thanks JC,

I'm going to have to sit back and look at this again....I can't believe he was 82 and a year after his death she married again....don't know where this idea Aussie John was related, but it's driven me bonkers ! Like all the Trace variations in Devon and Cornwall.
Looks like a chat with Oz, though I'm not overly confident I must say.....

Cheers !

Mr D

http://firstfleet.thruhere.net/convict.php?id=695

Family name(s) TRACE
Given name(s) John
Alternate name(s)
Sex Male
Occupation No trade recorded
>> Age when departed England 33 >> 1752/3 !!
Trial date 20 March 1786
Trial place Exeter, Devon
Crimes Stealing mutton
Value of crimes 7 shillings
Original sentence Transportation
Transported for 7 years
Ship Charlotte
Date left colony
Date of Death


http://www.fellowshipfirstfleeters.org.au/william_parish.htm

... So, in 1976, the Botany Cemetery Trust decided to create a Pioneer Memorial Park within the precincts of the cemetery adjacent to Bunnerong Road. All the stones were collected and moved. Many fragmented and illegible ones were discarded. There were 746 stones in reasonable condition and these were erected in uniform rows around a memorial block. >>> The headstone of John Trace was the only First Fleeter stone to survive.


http://www.myheritage.com/person-3034758_53321961_53321961/mary-ann-douglass-born-groves

William Douglas and Patrick Burn witnessed the weddings of Henry Roach and Elizabeth Holloway (Hollogin) and also the wedding of >> John Trace and Mary Rose. These weddings were celebrated on >> Monday the 23rd of August 1789 at Sydney Cove.


http://www.australian-english-genealogy.com/Lady%20Juliana.html

ROSE, Mary - 1769-1832 Sydney. Convicted at Lincoln in 1786 of stealing clothing from a house. >> Married John Trace in 1790 at Parramatta. John arrived as a convict on the Charlotte. Child George born 1796. Married James Knight in 1824 in Sydney. James arrived as a convict on the General Hewitt.

someody's right and somebody's wrong!

the latest conviction date for those who travelled on the Juliana was April 1789 ...

http://www.australian-english-genealogy.com/Convict%20Ships.html

The Lady Juliana began it's >> ten month journey, to Australia, in July 1789. During the course of the journey the women cohabited with crew members and entertained men at every port of call. The ship became known as "The Floating Brothel" and was not received with 'open arms' when it arrived in Sydney Cove. However three weeks later, when the four supply ships arrived, Sydney Cove took a turn for the better. Many of these women were in a good financial position when they >> arrived in Sydney, in June 1790.

so the marriage must have been August *1790*

a Mary Rose who would fit

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NTHM-MZG

Name Mary Rose
Gender Female
Christening Date 15 Mar 1770
Christening Place St. Swithin's, Lincoln, Lincoln, England
Father's Name John Rose
Mother's Name Mary

in Devon baptisms at fmp

First name(s) John
Last name Traise
Birth year 1751
Birth date ? ? 1751
Baptism year 1751
Baptism date 14 Apr 1751
Denomination Anglican
Place Milton Abbot
Father's first name(s) Robt
Mother's first name(s) Elizabeth
Mother's last name -
County Devon
Country England
Archive Plymouth & West Devon Record Office
Record set Devon Baptisms

their other children James, Joseph 1833, Mary, Robert, William


not especially close to Barnstaple or to Exeter


I think that unless somebody on both sides spits up some DNA in the male line, I may have to admit defeat :-)