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Sorry if this is a bit 'long winded' :-S

I've started 're-looking' at Daff's trees, and have run into a void.....

There is a rellie (apparently) who was transported to Oz on the First Fleet. Him I can find in her notes, plus information post arrival to death. What I can't find, and Daff was sure about it though I can't find these notes, is the link to the rest of the tree i.e. details of this man prior to his trial in Exeter.

What I have on the elusive one:

John TRACE Tried at Exeter Assizes 23 Mar 1786 for stealing 30lbs of mutton. Received 7 years 'Beyond the Sea'.
He was an Ag Lab. Local newspaper at time of his trial - Exeter Flying Post (not researched yet).
Sailed for Botany Bay on the Charlotte in 1788.
Noticed by Governor Phillip, and a marriage was arranged with Mary ROSE, who had been imprisoned in Lincoln for theft. She sailed out on the Lady Juliana (arrived 1790).
(sources: Lincoln County Council, 'The Floating Brothel'. Convict Stockade, 1806-49 Convict Muster for NSW/Tasmania).

They married on 23 Aug 1790 at Parramatta, NSW.
He died 1 Jul 1823, Sydney, and was buried in the Elizabeth Street Burial Ground (also Devonshire Street Cemetry Records).
Mary remarried in Feb 1824 to a James Knight.
(Source: Convict Stockade website).
John & Mary had one son, George b.10 Aug 1796 in Prospect (BMD).

In 1792, John TRACE, along with two other convicts, John Baughan and Joseph Morley, received a grant of land in Prospect Creek/Hill. This was 50 acres which would fit with his being married at this time (source: Ryan RJ : Land Grants 1788-1809). It's not clear how long he worked they worked the land though.

John died in Sydney on 1 July 1823, aged 82. This is the first indication of his d.o.b (c. 1741).
(source: Aus BMD).

That bit's not too bad ..... what I can't find is anything about John Trace prior to his trial.

What I have for the UK Devon TRACE family is (Census/BMD records/Daff notes):

Joseph TRAISE (Fremington - nfi)
Married to Susanna Lang* (nfi)

(Two poss candidates for father of JT : Robert TRAISE (b 1704, m. 1729, both in Devon, or John TRACE m.1720 in Norfolk)*.

Son: John TRACE (also TRAISE/TRAIES) 1776-1844 (Westleigh) Died in Fremington.
m Elizabeth Drew 1773-1853 (death registered in Barnstaple)

They had:

John TRACE 1805 -1895 (Westleigh)
m Jane Mathews 1802-1877 (St Kew, Cornwall)
In 1851 they were living in Advent, Cornwall.
They emigrated to Ontario, Canada in 1862* with two sons, James and John (sigh..). Daughter, Ruth remained in Advent, Cornwall.

Thomas TRACE 1812-1879 (Westleigh)
m Thomasine* Tucker 1812-1872. (Westdown) Married in 1800. (Her name also seen as Fanny, Tamzya, Tamzzen, Tamsen and Samson).

This gives me lineage dates of:
?1704 : Robert TRAISE (who married in 1729 in Milton Abbot, Devon) OR
?17..: John TRACE (who married in 1720 in Swaffham, Norfolk)*

17?? : Joseph TRAISE / TRACE

1776: John TRACE

1805: John TRACE
1812: Thomas TRACE.

My first thought regarding John TRACE of Australian fame, is that his dob of c.1741 may make him the sibling of Joseph TRAISE. Considering the 'normal' size of the TRACE families around this period though, there would appear to me a number of 'gaps' anyway.

*Some of the information re the UK side of life, has also been documented in Public Trees by 'Elkington' (Devon TRACE) and 'Thiele' (Canadian link), most of which I've verified.

Any hints, clues, suggestions where else to look (I've been using IGI as well) etc will be gratefully accepted.

Mr D. :-D

Can anyone please help with MrDaff's first post on his tree?

Please, please,

Thanks

Sue

Think I'll simplify ...

Looking for :

Any information on John TRACE born c.1741 in Devon, possible Westleigh or Fremington.

MAY be brother of Joseph TRACE (no dob) who married Susanna Lang in Fremington on 3 Apr 1769.

John was sentenced to deportation at Exeter Assizes - went off on 'First Fleet' to Oz, but I have that info.

Thanks !!

Mr D :-S

http://www.devon.gov.uk/record_office.htm

(not sure if above would have details for places mentioned, not seeing anything online, unless anybody else can)

Chris :)

(below on Find my Past, not much help!)

Baptism
Forename(s):John Lang
Surname:Tracey
Year:1749
Month:May
Day:21
Father's Forename:
Mother's Forename:Margaret
Mother's Surname:
Birth Day:
Birth Month:
Birth Year:
Dedication:Charles
Place:Plymouth
County:Devon
Page:140
Archive Ref:167/3
Notes:
Record source:Baptism Register - Transcripts
Data provider:Plymouth & West Devon Record Office Collection


TRACE, John - 1754-1823 Sydney. Convicted at Exeter in 1786 for theft of 20 pounds of mutton. Married Mary A Rose in 1790 at Parramatta. Mary was a convict who arrived on Lady Juliana. Child: George b1796. Mary married James Knight in 1824 at St Phillips Sydney. James arrived as a convict on the General Hewitt in 1814. Child: Charles E c1833.

http://www.australian-english-genealogy.com/Charlotteconvicts%202.html

Chris, thanks for that. I'll look again at this one. Initially I put it to one side because dob didn't match the age given on JT's gravestone - 82. But I didn't have the 'Lang' element in the Christian name before!!



:-)

Don't know if you have already seen this but Ancestry has a Register of Duties Paid for Apprentices' Indentures and they are showing a John Traise, a cordwainer of Crediton, Devon, paying for an apprentice Thomas Tozer. The date is 5th August 1757. I wondered if this could possibly be your John Trace's father or some other relative.

Devon Record Office hold various parish records for Westleigh and Fremington. I've found them very helpful in the past so, as you have a rough date of birth, perhaps they would look for a possible baptism, although I expect there would be a charge. They are closed for stocktaking at the moment - I think they re-open on 15th Feb.

SV - thank you very much - Traise is one of the variations I'm looking at too.
Def, I think, time to go to DRO when they open again! Interestingly, when searching around the Trace variations, Tozer's do crop up quite often as well....

Cheers,

Mr D :-D

Aha!......I found this whilst searching the Internet for TRACE.......I am expecting Sue to see this so that she knows I have found it and am on the case of Trace. if anyone else wants to help, feel free.

I have, phoned him but he's gassing ATM

gassing? not a cat I trust :-D :-D

?????????????


Name Joseph Trace
Gender Male
Wife Susannah
Son John Trace

Other information in the record of John Trace

from England Births and Christenings

Name John Trace
Gender Male
Christening Date 20 Jul 1769
Christening Place FREMINGTON,DEVON,ENGLAND
Father's Name Joseph Trace
Mother's Name Susannah

Devon is the devil to research ... they hold their records close to their chest

(I was in the middle of posting here when I saw the thread on General Chat
http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/general_chat/thread/1354923 )
- edit - fixed link, it was the close-parenthesis that was doing it in

baptisms from findmypast

? Joseph Trace — 1742 father Thos - Langtree
Mary Trace — 1744 father William - Langtree
Catherine Trace — 1745 father Thomas - Langtree

Langtree is not especially close to Fremington and Westleigh (which are just west/south of Barnstaple) but is not too far south

That thread mentioned by JC above has been deleted.

EDIT: 14/09/2015
Following JC's post today that the thread is still there, I tried it again - and it's there.
Yesterday all I got was the red Error message, and no sign of the thread - odd!

JC....There seem to be many spellings of the name.

Tracye, Tracey, Traise......

just before DAFF got really ill we had found him, or so we thought.....trouble is I deleted my account at the time and all the PMs we shared were gorn.....I didn't realise DAFF hadn't c&pd all the info I had collected....so we are back to square one.....If you really want to get into the depth of the TRACE line, it may be an idea to work backwards.....I don't have the tree at the moment but maybe it can be found for you.

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/general_chat/thread/1354923

I'm still seeing it!

but I wish the Sue/sans would keep it with the research/info that's here already :-)


weirdness ... I just went to that thread from My Threads but that link doesn't work

the thread is called ... 'Weird' ... maybe that's it!!

edit, the one I posted in this post works, but the other one doesn't, even though it looks exactly the same to me and all I did was C&P

ta Susan# I'll have a look tomorrow

I was with Daff at the Welsh Family History fair. I know she went over to the Devon and Cornwall table and found out something but I can't remember if it was this family or not.

Whatever it was, I'm pretty sure she wrote it down.

look what I have found....Interesting


http://www.trease.org.uk/tr_home.htm


It seems as if someone else has done a lot of the work Mr Daff

well ... it's a little odd :-) ... I was going to get around to looking in Cornwall ...


http://www.trease.org.uk/tri_j.htm

John Trease 1741 1774? John Trease & Ann Smeeth spouse? St Gennys
John Trease 1768 1772 John Trease & Ann Smeeth St Gennys
John Trease 1774 ? John Trease & Ann Smeeth spouse? St Gennys


those seem to be mutually exclusive -- I don't think the same couple had a son by the same name in 1741 and then in 1768 and then in 1774!

Cornwall OPC shows the 1768 baptism only:

http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=baptisms&id=3107372

edit - 1768 died 1772:
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=burials&id=1461973


only ref to Australia in the John list at the TREASE site:

John 'Jack' Trease 1880 1940 Thos. Trease & Mary McDermott
spouse Alma Mary Hamilton
St Arnaud, Dumbalk, Meeniyan VIC AUS

there is this more likely one ... same place and year as one of the ones in the Trease list, but different parents

http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=baptisms&id=3107074

Day Month 29-Aug
>> Year 1741
Parish Or Reg District Gennys, St.
>> Forename John
>> Surname TRAYS
Sex son
> Father Forename Peter
> Mother Forename Joan
Residence
Father Rank Profession
Notes
Transcriber Notes BTs


also

Grace Tray 1743
William Trease 1745
Peter Trease 1746
Betsey Trease 1747
Richard Treise 1749
Sam Trease 1751

in St Gennys with father Peter, two with mother Joan/Jone also shown


you can search at the OPC site by just putting the first three letters of a name, so I've tried with TRA and TRE

so here's their marriage

http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=marriages&id=548524

Day Month 28-Oct
Year 1740
Parish Or Reg District Gennys, St.
Groom Fn Peter
Groom Sn TREISE
Groom Age
Groom Residence
Groom Condition
Groom Rank Profession
Groom Signed / Marked (S/M)
Groom Father Name
Groom Father Rank Profession
Bride Fn Joan
Bride Sn SHARP


here are the John and Ann referred to, and completely erroneously listed at that TREASE site as parents of the 1841 birth

http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=marriages&id=548610

Day Month 10-Apr
Year 1765
Parish Or Reg District Gennys, St.
Groom Fn Jno
Groom Sn TREASE
Groom Residence St Gennys
Bride Fn Ann
Bride Sn SMEETH
Bride Residence St Gennys

... so that is why we don't rely on the research done by people in centuries gone by :-)



>>> is that 'our' John ???

the John and Ann couple had children in St Gennys - which is just a few miles down the coast from Barnstaple

Ann Trease 1766
John Trease 1768 (died 1772)
(I can't find any 1774 John birth as shown at the TREASE website)

don't see any more births, or burials for the couple, in Cornwall or Devon