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Dea - definitely not given up and am ploughing on.

If I have learnt one thing, it is that assumptions are truly dangerous, and getting hold of certs is the only way. Just on the detail, think I've nailed John's parents down, so that's good news

Chris

Christopher - you sound like you have 'given up' - such a shame !!

You really need John + Margaret's marriage cert - it could make all the difference.

Happy Christmas to you too ! - perhaps you will feel differenly when all the festivities are over - if so, come back to this thread.

Dea x

Hi Dea, Sturt and Shirley

Just a quick note to thank you all for your pointers and kind advice. You will detect that this is a complicated business and slightly beyond my limited genealogy expertise. Ah well

Thanks and Happy Christmas

Chris

Dea- just to throw a little darkness

I have an 1841
George P born 1791, Sarah P 1786, Thomas 1801, plus I guess some lodgers

This is in Leigh, Culcheth, Lancs

Hi Dea

Sorry for the delayed response, but a few things|
1. the William marriage. Am dead certain this is John's brother and have the marriage cert to Elizabeth Mellor, who appears in the next census as Betsy, with her mother also living with William
2. Think that the George marrying Martha is also right, although I have not researched that area of the Parkers
3. The Parish records have George (snr) and Sarah (?) parents at baptisms of the children inc George, William and John, so we are agreed on that
4. You could well be right about the George who appears in the 1841 census as there was a Thomas who appears in 1851 living Birkenhead

I am carrying on trying to get to the bottom of this. Would like to thank you for all your kind interest and look forward to your next instalment

Chris

Looks like the Elizabeth (Housekeeper with George and Thomas on 1841) is probably George's daughter??

Cheshire Birth indexes for the years: 1837 to 1839
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference

ARMSTRONG Sarah Elizabeth Mottram Tameside mothers maiden name = PARKER MOT/1/71

Something else to follow................

Dea x

I thought that we had decided that John's parents were most probably George and Sarah ??

This could well be George on 1841 (no Sarah), with son Thomas of the right age:

1841 census transcription details for: Hollingworth Street, Mottram In Longden Dale, Hollingworth
Print Close

National Archive Reference:
RG number: HO107
Piece: 100
Book/Folio: 5/13
Page: 20
Reg. District: Ashton & Oldham
Sub District: Mottram
Parish: Mottram in Longden Dale
Enum. District:
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: Hollingworth Street, Mottram In Longden Dale, Hollingworth
County: Cheshire
Name Relation Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born
PARKER, George M 50 1791 Cheshire
PARKER, Thomas M 15 1826 Cheshire
ARMSTRONG, Elizabeth F 25 1816 Cheshire House keeper
ARMSTRONG, Sarah E F 2 1839 Cheshire


George is a 'Waste Dealer' (Probably cotton waste as he is surrounded by cotton workers)
Thomas is working as his apprentice.

Dea x

P.S. The Mary Ann Ogden who John is lodging with on 1871 is very probably his sister.

I found this marriage which appears a little early and I can't find the Ogdens on 51 or 61 but it seems to fit?

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1850
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference

PARKER Mary A OGDEN James Manchester Cathedral (formerly Manchester Collegiate Church) Manchester CATH/77/64


Dea x

Thanks Dea, will get that. Think I know their names as John Parker and James Aikin , but heaven knows how to track the former back and get some detail. My problem seems to be that there were four brothers, born in Bollington, Cheshire, between 1817 and 1827, who don't seem to be with their parents in the 1841

Chris

Using http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/
Marriage: 29 Mar 1840 St Mary, Oldham, Lancashire, England
William Parker - full Cotton Dealer Bachelor of Oldham
Elizabeth Mellor - full Spinster of Oldham
Witness: Abram Jackson; Peter Ryder
Married by Licence by: J. Fallowfield
Register: Marriages 1840 - 1841, Page 19, Entry 37
Source: LDS Film 1656120
[There were 27 marrs in March - Abram Jackson was a witness on 26 of them]

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1839
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
PARKER George BLINCOE Martha Manchester Collegiate Church (later Manchester Cathedral) Manchester CATH/10/66

John + Margaret's marriage cert would give you both their father's and their occupations.

Also witnesses who may be family members.

Dea x

Thanks mgnv

Obtained JWP's birth cert for 1877 which listed parents as John Parker and Margaret nee Aikin. Marriage looks like 1875 in Newcastle.

Still completely stuck re John's parents. Stuart dug out parish records on Nov 29 listing siblings with .parents as George Parker and Sarah ?, but can't get any more detail at all

Have made good progress elsewhere with all sorts of surprises (!!!), but any thought s you have on how i can get to the parents of JP, would be grateful

I think we must rule out Stuart's guess for John's marr to Margt:
Using http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1872
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
PARKER John PERCIVAL Jane Manchester Cathedral (formerly Manchester Collegiate Church) Manchester CATH/190/365

More likely are:
Marriages Dec 1875 (>99%)
ADAMSON Maria Prestwich 8d 646
EVANS Samuel Prestwich 8d 646
Parker John Thomas Prestwich 8d 646
SMITH Margaret Prestwich 8d 646

and
Marriages Jun 1879 (>99%)
Bardsley Mary Ann S Stockport 8a 116
Beswick Alfred Stockport 8a 116
NEWTON MARGARET Stockport 8a 116
PARKER John Stockport 8a 116
STEWART Nancy Cooper J Macclesfield 8a 116


Although it seems too recent, using http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/
Cheshire Marriage indexes for the years: 1876 to 1880
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
PARKER John NEWTON Margaret Stockport Civil Marriage Stockport STR/28/15

Which just leaves:
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1875
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
PARKER John T SMITH Margaret Bradford, Christ Church Manchester 33/1/323

However, we can look this up at:
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1®ion=UNITED_KINGDOM_IRELAND
Although the relevant collection is partly indexed, I usually just go ahead and "browse the images" - particularly since we know the church and the entry #=323:
England, Lancashire, Ches...rish Registers, 1603-1910 > Lancashire > Bradford, Christ Church > Marriages, 1862-1877 > Image 162 of 250
so John Thomas Parker is a 24 y o bachelor, and Margt is 21
Since this doesn't really fit Stuart's posted 1881, my guess is they never wed.

Hi

Couple of things

Have the birth cert of John William, who married Margaret Aikin in Newcastle in 1875, much to my surprise!! S where the Newton middle name came from, I have no idea

Looking through some online parish records, it seems that the parents of the brothers, eg George, William and John, were George snr and Sarah. No help from William's marriage cert by the way, although the hunch that he married Elizabeth Mellors was spot on

I am therefore still stuck on detail about George snr and Sarah, maiden name, dates and parents.

Can I ask you to point me in some direction that might help?

Chris

I'll order up the William/Elizabeth and see what we get

?? Civil Registration event: Marriage

Print Close
Name: PARKER, George
Registration district: Manchester
County: Lancashire
Year of registration: 1839
Quarter of registration: Apr-May-Jun
Spouse's last name: Not available before 1912
Volume no: 20
Page no: 348
MarriageFinder: George Parker married one of the following people:

ASHTEN, Ann
BLINCOE, Martha <<<<<?
JACKSON, Jane
JACKSON, Mary
BROOKES, Peter
FAIRBOURN, Cornelius

That William is born LAncs. I think the William with the Mellors in 1841 is the more likely and that Elizabeth in the 1841 and Betsey in the 1851 are the same person. Young bride!
Ashton under Lyne RD covers Royton where Elizabeth was born and Oldham. Not sure the old PArkers have anything to do with it (? found Thomas b 1788 on the 1851 still in Alport Town b Yorkshire - with a much younger wife)

???Civil Registration event: Marriage

Name: PARKER, William
Registration district: Ashton under Lyne
County: Lancashire
Year of registration: 1840
Quarter of registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Spouse's last name: Not available before 1912
Volume no: 20
Page no: 59
MarriageFinder: William Parker married one of the following people:

HOYLES, Mary
MARLAND, Harriet
MELLOR, Elizabeth <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
RAYNOR, Mary Ann
BRICK, Edward
BROWN, Jacob
JONES, John

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1840
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
PARKER William MELLOR Elizabeth Oldham, St. Mary Oldham CE235/3/37

The two old Parkers- William is living with them in 1841

Will attempt to discover marriages of William and George tomorrow and then order

Shocking though it may be, John definitely born before Margaret married, so is his mother the first wife, Jane Clague, or the second Margaret Newton? Perhaps she was married before and Newton is her married name

Nothing would surprise me, I have found lots of little embarrassments in other parts of the tree.

Chris

Am I missing something, who are the 2 old Parkers you mention in 1841.

Am referring to marriage certificate for the brothers born 1817-1827 to tell you who their father is, as that was your original question.

As an aside - John William 1877 and George 1879, both born before John and Margaret married if correct marriage. Was Margaret not free to marry until later? OR - I have a housekeeper in my lot who later turns out to be mother of the household heads younger children, then she moves on after his death and does the same thing, although she did marry both at some point!!

Should get birth cert for JWP tomorrow

Yes , ia assumed he was with the Mellors, and went there with Elizabeth, leaving John and Mary with George and Martha.