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Hello, I was asked if I had a copy of the original birth certificate. the answer to that is 'I think so'.

I have a copy (dated 9th May 1921). It is entitled a certified copy of an entry of birth. Interesting as it has Mary Ann Ainsworth's mark. Completed by the registrar though. does that help?

Definitely looks as if the 1911 for Tomas is the right family - wonder where Robert is and why he hasn't been included in the number of children?

Mary Ann made her mark X on her marriage cert. which means she could'nt write her own name.

It is a funny thing Bob, that she says she had 7 children born on the 1911 census and 3 had died. I have given you all the children's baptisms and there is no Robert.

Mel

Mel, if you were looking on Ancestry for Robert's baptism, the London ones only go as far as 1906. I wonder why a copy of the birth cert was obtained in 1921 when Robert would have been 14?

I wonder if he was fostered out??

I suppose it will be a family conundrum. 'Tomas'' is 'Thomas' on my copy. Perhaps the family was not only illiterate but innumerate as well? My grandfather left school at 14 to become a bricklayer (labourer perhaps). The certificate was required so he could leave school; notation on the back of the certificate. After the war he became a carpenter.

We need to add one to the census count.

Kind regards to all

Bob

1871 census transcription details for: St George Market (Butcher Row), St George

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG10
Piece: 605
Folio: 80
Page: 28
Reg. District: St Saviour Southwark
Sub District: London Road
Parish: St George
Enum. District: 3
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: St George Market (Butcher Row), St George
County: London, Surrey
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born
AINSWORTH, Edward Head M 44 1827 Surrey Bricklayer
AINSWORTH, Ann Wife F 43 1828 Surrey
AINSWORTH, Edward Son M 18 1853 Surrey Printer
AINSWORTH, James Son M 15 1856 Surrey Slipper Maker
AINSWORTH, William Son M 10 1861 Surrey
AINSWORTH, Thomas Son M 7 1864 Surrey
AINSWORTH, Sophia Daughter F 5 1866 Surrey
AINSWORTH, George Son M 1 1870 Surrey

Not picking Edward Snr up on the 1861 as yet, but here he is in 1851

1851 census transcription details for: 21, Market Street, Saint George The Martyr, London, Southwark

National Archive Reference:
RG number: HO107
Piece: 1565
Folio: 64
Page: 2
Reg. District: Saint George Southwark
Sub District: London Road
Parish: Saint George the Martyr
Enum. District: 3
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough: Southwark
Address: 21, Market Street, Saint George The Martyr, London, Southwark
County: Surrey
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
AINSWORTH, Edward Unmarried M 23 1828 Bricklayer London Road
MARSHALL, William Unmarried M 23 1828 Tine Worker Yarmouth
NEALE, Richard Head Married M 27 1824 Spinner Whitechapel
NEALE, Emma Wife Married F 23 1828 Shoemaker Bethnal Green

and hopefully in 1841

1841 census transcription details for: Norfolk Street, St Saviour, Southwark

National Archive Reference:
RG number: HO107
Piece: 1088
Book/Folio: 5/28
Page: 10
Reg. District: St Saviour Union
Sub District: St Saviour
Parish: St Saviour
Enum. District:
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough: Southwark
Address: Norfolk Street, St Saviour, Southwark
County: Surrey
Name Relation Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born
HANCOCK, Ann F 30 1811 Surrey
HANCOCK, Robert M 35 1806 Surrey
HANCOCK, Mary F 12 1829 Surrey
HANCOCK, Ellen F 10 1831 Surrey
HANCOCK, Robert M 8 1833 Surrey
DODSON, Mary F 30 1811 Surrey
DODSON, Roger M 35 1806 Surrey
AINSWORTH, Thomas M 40 1801 Surrey <<<<<<Hatter
AINSWORTH, Harriet F 35 1806 Surrey
AINSWORTH, Edward M 10 1831 Surrey <<<<<<<<<<<<
AINSWORTH, Elizabeth F 7 1834 Surrey

Oooooo I have just had a thought!!!!!!!!!

I wonder if the daughter Mary Ann JANE Ainsworth was the mother of Robert????????? As she was a cripple and so could'nt work and had the same names, apart from the Jane bit, as her mother and the mother registered the birth and put her X. That would explain things

What a good thought........................

I also wonder if it was Robert himself who purchased a copy of his birth certificate in 1921 because he had no idea who his parents were??

Thanks Stuart :-D

It certainly seems possible to me as the dau would have been old enough.

But it still leaves the question as to where Robert was on the 1911........? Perhaps with rellies a long way away??????

And where was young Mary Ann? Thought I'd found a marriage in 1910 Southwark but when I found the Stumps on the 1911 MAry Ann was born 1875!! And no Robert, Ainsworth or Stump!!

I can answer thecreason why he needed the birth certificate ... He needed it to leave school at age 14ish. There is a notation on the back. The idea of Mary Ann Jane being the mother is interesting. If she was a cripple, would she have had an education hence SHE made the mark? Could it be that Robert was 'hidden' out if shame? Sadly, I know of no relations who might be able to answer. To answer the 'being with rellies' it could be I guess but surely it would show up? (says me the 3 day 'expert' lol)

My thanks to posters and researchers. You are opening my eyes to my family. I can't thank you enough.

Bob

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Mary Ann Ainsworth
Name: Mary Ann Ainsworth
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888
Age: 22
Spouse Name: Charles Harry Stump
Spouse Age: 22 (Carman)
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 27 Mar 1910
Parish: Southwark Christ Church
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: Thomas Ainsworth (Pastry Cook)
Spouse Father Name: Charles Henry Stump (Engineer)
Register Type: Parish Register
Witnesses: Thomas Stump and Jane Mary Ann Groves


Charles Harry Stump was born 1888 Southwark London




Household transcription
1911 census
Person: STUMP, Charles H
Address: 8 Holyoak Road Newington Butts S E

STUMP, Charles H Head Married M 36 1875 Carman Southwark VIEW
STUMP, Mary Ann Wife Married1 years F 36 1875 Paper Bag Maker Southwark VIEW
RG number: RG14
Piece: 1978
Reference: RG14PN1978 RG78PN70 RD25 SD2 ED4 SN103
Registration District: Lambeth
Sub District: Kennington
Enumeration District: 4
Parish: Lambeth
Address: 8 Holyoak Road Newington Butts S E
County: London

Odd that both claim to be 36 and yet they were both born in 1888!

Stump/Ainsworth births...........


Births Jun 1912 (>99%)
Stump May Ainsworth Southwark 1d 73

Births Mar 1914 (>99%)
Stump Charles T Ainsworth Southwark 1d 85

Births Mar 1920 (>99%)
Stump George Ainsworth Southwark 1d 146

Births Sep 1922 (>99%)
Stump William Ainsworth Southwark 1d 126

London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
about Mary Ann Stump
Name: Mary Ann Stump
Year: 1921
County or Borough: Southwark
Ward or Division/Constituency: Southwark and Stoke Newington

And Charles Henry is on there too.

Sydney's marriage

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Sydney Ainsworth
Name: Sydney Ainsworth
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1899
Age: 19
Spouse Name: Emily Greenwood
Spouse Age: 21
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 10 Nov 1918
Parish: St George the Martyr
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: Thomas Ainsworth <<<<<<Pastry Cook
Spouse Father Name: Thomas Greenwood (deceased) Compositor
Register Type: Parish Register

Ainsworth/Greenwood Births.......


Births Mar 1922 (>99%)
Ainsworth Emily Greenwood Southwark 1d 64

Births Sep 1924 (>99%)
AINSWORTH Sidney Greenwood Southwark 1d 7

Births Sep 1928 (>99%)
Ainsworth John Greenwood Southwark 1d 4


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