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I have been trying for years to locate the birth of my husband's grandmother Germaine Brookes. I believe it would have been about 1873 to 1876, possibly in Manchester. Details we have are that she married Frederick Dyer Fisher in Eastbourne, Sussex on 09/05/1898 (certificate shows Brooks and Brookes) . She then married Edwin Penfold in Eastbourne 16/01/1915 and died in Eastbourne on 13/11/1935.
On 1901 census she was listed as "Bessie", wife of Fred Fisher (son Leonard and daughter Florence) in Eastbourne. I have found various comments about an "Elizabeth" Fisher in the Eastbourne Union Workhouse records in the early 1900's where my husband's father, Frederick John Fisher, was born on 10/05/1902. I have been unable to find any birth records for a Germaine Brooks (e) (es).
I wonder if the name Germaine was a Catholic baptismal name as she had Frederick John baptised a Catholic in Eastbourne.
Both her marriage certificates show her father as John Brookes, Engine Driver, deceased.
Also I have had no luck in locating her son Leonard born possibly 1894 (Brooks, Brookes or Fisher) also possibly in Manchester. He is mentioned in the workshop records as being sent to the "Waifs and Strays Home" in Bognor Regis, Sussex with a boy called Horace Boniface on 30/05/1902 on condition that Elizabeth (possibly Germaine) Fisher discharges herself with her 2 children (Florence and Frederick) from the workhouse. Latest details of Leonard we have found was that he was in St Andrews Home, Reading under the name Fisher on 01/12/1910 aged 16.
Family folklore states that he went to Canada in his late teens, joined the RCMP and returned to England with the contingent from the RCMP for the Queen's Coronation in 1953. We have found no evidence to support this however.
I would be very grateful if anyone could help locating these 2 elusive births.

Hi Veronica and welcome to th GR message boards


Interesting??

Canada, Soldiers of the First World War, 1914-1918
about Leonard Brooke Fisher
Name: Leonard Brooke Fisher
Birth Date: 4 Feb 1894
Birth Location: Sussex, England
Relative: Frederick Fisher
Relationship: Father
Regiment Number: 689

Andy

Canadian Passenger Lists, 1865-1935
about Leonard Fisher
Name: Leonard Fisher
Gender: Male
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1894
Date of Arrival: 18 Jun 1910
Vessel: Victorian
Search Ship Database: View the 'Victorian' in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
Port of arrival: Quebec
Port of departure: Liverpool, England
Roll: T-4768


Under the Auspices of Church Army Waifs and Strays Society.

Andy

Good find there Andy!

I can see why this is proving so difficult. No luck yet re. Manchester for Leonard. The only remote possibility is this, but it seems unlikely she would have put Lancs if he was born in Yorkshire!

Name: Leonard Brookes
Birth Date: 4 Jan 1894
Parish: Leeds, St Saviour
Baptism Date: 19 Jan 1894
Father's Name: Brookes
Mother's Name: Bessie Brookes

Jan

Do need to say that someone on Ancestry has a Leonard Brooke Fisher, born 1898 Cheshire, dying Toronto. This person is recorded as having parents Frederick Geprge and Mary jane Fisher???
According to them Frederick was born in Kent about 1866 as was Mary, and Fred died in Saskatchewan.
If it is the same man, I wonder if he emigrated and re-married also?
Jan

Leonard Brooke Fisher on his Canadian attestation papers changed his next of kin (note in margin) in 1916 to Mrs Izzard, Sherfield on Loddon, Basingstoke, Hampshire.


It looks as though he returned to England and married her in 1917


Marriages Sep 1917 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Fisher Leonard B Izzard Basingstoke 2c 481
Izzard Edith R Fisher Basingstoke 2c 481

Hello Veronica, I've never heard of Germaine as a Latin version of any name. There's a list here of known variations http://www.familytreeforum.com/content.php/370-latin-names

Did you get the name of Germaine from the birth certificate? Is the father named on there as Frederick Dyer Fisher?

Might this be Leonard's birth?

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
Name: Leonard Brookes
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1894
Registration district: Altrincham
Inferred County: Cheshire
Volume: 8a
Page: 168

Not too far from Manchester .....

I'm dubious about that tree on Ancestry and the death of the father Fred. If the middle name of Dyer that Veronica quoted is correct then I think this would be the death of that man:

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2006
Name: Frederick D Fisher
Birth Date: abt 1877
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1952
Age at Death: 75
Registration district: Eastbourne
Inferred County: Sussex
Volume: 5h
Page: 238

plus

England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1966
Name: Frederick Dyer Fisher
Probate Date: 23 Dec 1952
Death Date: 4 Nov 1952
Death Place: Eastbourne
Registry: London, England

otherwise known as Frederick. Lived 10 Hanover Road, Eastbourne. Probate granted to Susannah Dyer Dawes, widow. Effects £3148 7s 9d

Marriages Dec 1898 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DAWES George Thorpe Eastbourne 2b 174
Fisher Susanah Eastbourne 2b 174



Name: Susannah Dyer Dawes
Probate Date: 30 Jun 1964
Death Date: 29 May 1964
Death Place: Eastbourne
Registry: Lewes

44 Woodgate Road, Eastbourne, widow
Probate to James Arthur Fairclough, solicitor
£6845

Name: George Thorpe Dawes
Probate Date: 13 Jun 1952
Death Date: 29 Apr 1952
Death Place: Eastbourne
Registry: London, England


of 27 Ringwood Road, Eastbourne
Probate to Susannah Dyer Dawes, widow
£5932 19s 5d

Goodness me!! I don't know whether I am replying to everyone who kindly offered me information by this message or not. If I am only sending this to one person could you please let me know how to reply to all of you? You have certainly given me lots of places to look.

Andrew - The Canadian 1st World War Soldiers looks interesting but I think that the Canadian Passenger lists looks more likely as it was under the auspices of the Church Army Waifs and Strays Society.

Brummiejan - I only had Manchester as the place of birth because of the 1901 census. The birth in Leeds might be the one, or am I only clutching at straws?

Marie-Celeste - the name Germaine was shown on both of her marriage and her death certificates. I only wish I had her birth certificate.
Frederick Dyer Fisher was her 1st husband and the father of Florence, Frederick John and May Fisher. I have all their birth certs.
Yes, you are correct Frederick Dyer Fisher died 04/11/1952. The Susannah Dyer Dawes mentioned was his sister.

Can anyone help me as to how I locate Wills, please?

Sorry for the delay in replying, I mistakenly thought I would get an e-mail notification when someone contacted me. I am very sorry for taking so long to get back to you.

Thank you for your help.

Veronica.

Hi Veronica - you are 100% right in the way you are responding, we can all see what is posted on here.

Just one thing I want to check out - what was Frederick Dyer Fisher's father's name and occupation on the marriage certificate? From what I've found out whilst digging around it should be William Fisher who in 1891 was a "bathchairman".

EDIT: Re: the Altrincham birth I posted above - I wonder if this is the corresponding baptism?

England, Cheshire Parish Registers, 1538-2000 Leonard Brooks, 1894

name: Leonard Brooks
event: Christening
event date: 04 Nov 1894
event place: St Anne, Sale, Cheshire, England
gender: Male
age:
marital status:
father: John Frederick Brooks
mother: Hannah
spouse:
spouse's marital status:
spouse's father:
spouse's mother:
film number: 1656554
digital folder number: 4018389
image number: 251

Citing this Record
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F3VN-3Q1

If it is, then we can probably discount it.

Possible son:

Births Sep 1918
Fisher William L Izzard Petersfield 2c 291

Rose

On the other site this is worth looking at;

British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920 about Edwin Penfold
Name: Edwin Penfold
Residence: 211 Southbourne Road, Eastbourne
Regimental Number: ??4
Regiment Name: HC Divl ??
Number of images: 66

It confirms his marriage to Germaine Fisher.. who states she is a widow. There also seems to be a daughter born in December 1907, looks like edith ??? I just can't make out her middle name.

It states that Edwin was born 24/09/1886. I can see edwin in 1891 and 1901... can't find him in 1911 though.

There are a couple of addresses for Edwin on there; Winter St, and later 211 Southdowne St.

Another daughter?

Births Mar 1920
Penfold Mary J Brookes Eastbourne 2b See M 61

Rose

Hello everyone, you would not believe it but I have just written my reply and then lost it, so this is my 2nd attempt!

Marie-Celeste- Yes, Frederick Dyer Fisher's father was William, the bathchairman. He was born in County Durham and, apparently, went down to Eastbourne on a coal barge. His wife's 1st husband was a Robert Dyer and William, obligingly, allowed most of his children to have Dyer as their middle name.

I doubt if the Cheshire birth and baptism are correct as the mother is Hannah née ? married to John Frederick Brooks. My Leonard's mother is Germaine/Elizabeth née Brooks. Her father and Leonard's grandfather was John - this is so complicated.

Batman's daughter - It seems that Germaine/Elizabeth was very economical with the truth.

She was not a widow in 1915 when she married Edwin Penfold (her 1st husband did not die until 04/11/1952).

Her possible years of birth changed with each event -

1st marriage - 09/05/1898 - age 24 therefore born before 09/05/1874

2nd marriage - 16/01/1915 - age 39 therefore born before 16/01/1876 (perhaps she did not want to admit to being over 40!)

Death 13/11/1935 - age 62 therefore born before 13/11/1873

1901 census age 29 therefore born about 1872.


I had never considered the possibilty of children from her Penfold marriage. I shall look into that, thanks. I have just had a quick look for the "Edith" birth on BMD (which was when I lost my posting!) and couldn't find her. I shall have another go later on.

I could find neither Edwin Penfold nor Germaine/Elizabeth Fisher in the 1911 census and wondered if they were both in the Workhouse then. (Germaine seemed to go in and out of it like a fiddler's elbow from the few details I managed to find in the library). I was also unable to find the returns for the Eastbourne Union Workhouse in the 1911 census.

Can anyone please let me know how to locate Wills such as that one of Frederick Dyer Fisher shown above?

Thank you all once again,

Veronica.

this is the reference for the 1911 census return for Eastbourne Union Workhouse


RG14PN4849 RD71 SD2 ED37 SN9999
Reg. District: Eastbourne
Sub District: Eastbourne
Parish: Eastbourne
Enum. District: 37
Address: Eastbourne
County: Sussex


I have trawled through the names, but I can't see Edwin or Germaine/Elizabeth.

Wow! How did you find that. I have spent hours on the 1911 census site trying to find it without luck.

Thank you so much (even if Germaine and Edwin aren't there!)

Veronica.