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You're very welcome Thomas!

If you look back to my post of 6 Sep 2012 19:19 I gave the link for FreeBMD - have a look and see if you can find Carl and Dennis birth on there - that should give you a mother's maiden name and we can then start looking for Albert's next partner.

To Marie Celeste
Many thanks once again . you found in a few minutes what I had been trying to find for weeks------ fantstic

I reckon this young Albert W Gilbert in 1881 is your Albert hill:

GILBERT, Lydia Head Widow F 51 1830 Dressmaker Melton Mowbray, Leicestershire
GILBERT, William W Son Single M 28 1853 Tailor Wymeswold, Leicestershire
GILBERT, Edward Son Single M 12 1869 Scholar Wymeswold, Leicestershire
GILBERT, Lydia W Daughter Single F 9 1872 Scholar Wymeswold, Leicestershire
GILBERT, Albert W Grand Son Single M 8 1873 Scholar Wymeswold, Leicestershire <<<

Piece: 3148 Folio: 9 Page: 9
Registration District: Loughborough
Civil Parish: Wimeswould

Address: Brook St, Wimeswould County: Leicestershire

OK - there is a very well documented tree on Ancestry that has the entire family listed, copies of birth certificates etc.

Albert William Hill was born 29 September 1872 in the Union Workhoouse, Melton Mowbray. His mother was Jane Hill - no father's details given.

On the birth certificate for Oliver, born 23 March 1894 at 110 Harbour Road, Leicester mother is Jane, a charwoman. Again, no father.

However, the tree has the father as William Whitby Gilbert born 1852, a tailor.

I can't find a marriage record so perhaps they never bothered.

Just one thing, although William Gilbert is cited as Albert's father, William is still living with his parents in 1881.

If you're not a member of Ancestry, you can search and view trees, and contact tree owners on Ancestry's sister site Mundia. http://www.mundia.com/gb/
You have to register but it's completely free.

Thomas - look again carefully at that 1911 I posted further up the page. On it, Albert's father is shown as William Gilbert, who has sons Oliver and Thomas - they surely must be those brothers you refer to.

What we need to work out now is why Albert has a different surname to his father - quite possibly he was born before his parents marriage and was known by his mother's maiden name, BUT - we need to investigate.

Hello again Thomas! Further up this page I posted the reference for the marriage of Albert William Hill to Kate Hames:

Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page
Marriages Sep 1915
Hames Kate Hill Basford 7b 521
Hill Albert W Hames Basford 7b 521

Because he has a fairly common name your best bet is to get a copy of that marriage certificate, which should give details of his father - that will help trace him back.

You can order a copy of the certificate from GRO for £9.25 (cheapest place).
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

Still looking for Albert Hill born 1874 in Melton Mowbray I can find him in the 1911 Census in Ilkeston but nothing prior to that .I do know he had two brothers Thomas and Oliver but cant find them either and he had two sons by his third wife named Carl and Dennis late 1920 early 1930s

from Thomas

Thomas, have you tried having a look for possible marriages on FreeBMD http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

You might also find the births of Carl & Dennis on there and perhaps Kate's death - I did find a possible in 1923.

Can the source of this latest info not give you the other wife's name and when the boys were born?

From Thomas.
Thank you Marie Celeste for all the info regarding Albert Hills family I now find he was married athird time but dont know when and he had two other sons whose names were Carl and Dennis Hill ,does anyone know of this Marriage and also when Albert died

The 1911 pulls it all together - Albert and Kate are pretending they're already married, her father and son (listed as boarder) are with them:

HILL, Albert Head Married M 38 1873 Labourer General Leicesters Melton Mawbray
HILL, Kate Wife Married 8 years F 47 1864 Leicesters Wymeswold
HILL, Beatrice Daughter Single F 15 1896 Servant Domestic Derbys Ilkeston
HILL, Bertha Daughter F 7 1904 Notts Stapleford
HAMES, Cyril Boarder Single M 16 1895 Crane Driver Hydranlic Leicestershire Barrow on Soar (stepson)
BASFORD, John Boarder Widower M 72 1839 Timber Merchant Leicestershire Wymeswold (father-in-law)
GILBERT, William Boarder Single M 58 1853 Tailor Maker Leicestershire Wymeswold (father)
GILBERT, Oliver Boarder Single M 17 1894 Carter General Leicester (brother)
GILBERT, Thomas Boarder Single M 15 1896 Clerk Leicester (brother)

RG number: RG14 Piece: 20422
Reference: RG14PN20422 RG78PN1222 RD429 SD2 ED31 SN45
Registration District: Basford
Sub District: Ilkeston
Enumeration District: 31
Parish: Ilkeston

Address: 102 Crompton St Hallam Fields Ilkeston County: Nottinghamshire

The relationships that I've put in brackets are those that were originally entered on the form and were then crossed out.

Kate claims to have 1 child, still alive - presumably that's Bertha to this relationship. She has omitted her children from her first marriage.

1901, looks like Kate is widowed (fits) - where are her children?

SMITH, Jacob Head Married M 57 1844 Timber Merchant Cheltenham, Gloucestershire
HAMES, Kate Servant Widow F 38 1863 Servant Domestic Wymeswold, Leicestershire

Piece: 2978 Folio: 83 Page: 20
Registration District: Loughborough
Civil Parish: Loughborough

Address: 4, Park Street, Loughborough County: Leicestershire

This would be Kate and Harry in 1891 - does her birthplace match census records when she was Bassford?

HAMES, Harry Squires Head Married M 26 1865 Farm Laborer Barrow-On-Soar, Leicestershire
HAMES, Kate Wife Married F 27 1864 Wymeswold, Leicestershire
HAMES, Wilfred Son M 2 1889 Barrow-On-Soar, Leicestershire
HAMES, Mable Daughter F 1 1890 Barrow-On-Soar, Leicestershire

Piece: 2519 Folio: 14 Page: 22
Registration District: Barrow upon Soar
Civil Parish: Barrow upon Soar

Address: Bill Hedges, Barrow Upon Soar, Barrow-On-Soar County: Leicestershire

This might be her first husband's death:

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1915
Name: Harry Square Hames
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1900
Age at Death: 35
Registration district: Loughborough
Inferred County: Leicestershire
Volume: 7a
Page: 64

If these are the right records, then I guess they had a common bond of losing their spouses in the same year as well as the other family connections.

I suppose the marriage certificate would prove one way or another:

Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page
Marriages Sep 1915
Hames Kate Hill Basford 7b 521
Hill Albert W Hames Basford 7b 521

and possibly her first marriage?

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1887
Bailey William Edward Loughborough 7a 269
BASSFORD Kate Loughbro' 7a 269 ??
FERRIMAN Isabella Loughborough 7a 269
Hames Harry Squire Loughbro' 7a 269 ??

Re Fanny Basford-------once again many thanks for all the info I have now found that Albert Hill who was married to Fanny until she died in 1900 was later married to her sister kate who was born in1864 however I think her name was Kate Hames which means she could have been married before ??

Re Fanny Basford

Many thanks to everyone who helped find information for me regarding Fanny it is the first time I have used the threads and I am very impressed
regards Thomas

??????

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Sep 1871 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bassford Fanny Loughbro' 7a 113

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Jun 1872 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BASSFORD Fanny Beatrice Loughbro' 7a 129



I am really not sure....looks like a marriage cerificate is called for to get her fathers name.


Regards Vera

1901
Sex Age Birth Year Occupation
Disability Where born Image
ADCOCK, Walter H Head Married M 29 1872 Fruit Grower In Nurseries
Melbourne, Derbyshire VIEW
ADCOCK, Fanny Wife Married F 29 1872
Loughborough, Leicestershire VIEW
ADCOCK, Rowland H Son M 2 1899
Loughborough, Leicestershire VIEW
ADCOCK, Constance M Daughter F 1 1900
East Preston, Sussex VIEW
TAGG, William Boarder Single M 21 1880 Fruit Grower In Nurseries
Middleton, Norfolk VIEW
Piece: 960
Folio: 84
Page: 43
Registration District: East Preston
Civil Parish: Heene
Municipal Borough:
Address: 7, The Drive, Heene, Worthing
County: Sussex



Regards Vera

Yes I think the marriage & death registrations are correct, just don't know about the census, because there's also this marriage....



Marriages Sep 1897 (>99%)

ADCOCK Walter Henry Loughbro' 7a 280
Bassford Fanny Loughbro' 7a 280


So there are 2 Fanny Bas(s)fords.


The one that you posted Vera.....

1881 England Census
about Fanny Basford
Name: Fanny Basford
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John Basford
Mother's Name: Betsy Basford
Gender: Female
Where born: Wymeswold, Leicestershire, England

Civil parish: Wymeswold
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Country: England

Street Address: Clay St
Education:

Employment status:
View image
Occupation: Scholar

Registration district: Loughborough
Sub-registration district: Leake
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3148
Folio: 26
Page Number: 17
Household Members: Name Age
John Basford 45
Betsy Basford 45
Clara Holwell 21
Lucy Basford 13
Cath. Holwell 15
Arthur Holwell 13
Thomas Basford 11
Fanny Basford 9
Caroline Basford 7


And this one...

1881 England Census
about Fanny Bassford
Name: Fanny Bassford
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1871
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: George Bassford
Mother's Name: Emma Bassford
Gender: Female
Where born: Loughborough, Leicestershire, England

Civil parish: Loughborough
County/Island: Leicestershire
Country: England

Street Address: 14 Ashby Sq
Education:

Employment status:
View image
Occupation: Scholar

Registration district: Loughborough
Sub-registration district: Loughborough
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3144
Folio: 98
Page Number: 15
Household Members: Name Age
George Bassford 52
Emma Bassford 42
Emma Bassford 16
Annie Bassford 14
Fanny Bassford 10
Florrie Bassford 3

Which one married Albert Hill??

As the one that married Walter Adcock gives her pob as Loughborough on all later census, I think the one you posted, born in Wymeswold, is correct. What do you think?

Christina,
I am sure yours is the correct one...marrying an Albert Hill....dying in 1900. Yours fits.

Regards Vera