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I tried sending messages to an old friends sons on facebook...not one reply ended up finding her cousin on here to pass on my message

So nothing for the GR member either? You did send it to the most recent membership number?

No luck so far. I have contacted one person, but apart from a hello, there has been no reply. :-(

Sending a pm re poss whereabouts for Kathleen and FBook and possable tree contact for two of her children. Maybe these later children of Florence may know something about there mothers past life?

I would think that Elsie did marry in 1945 and 1951 but I think it was to the same man using Reginald for the first marriage and Percy for the second

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about Percy Reginald Cooper
Birth Date: 23 Oct 1918
Date of Registration: May 1993
Age at Death: 74
Registration district: Brentwood
Inferred County: Essex
Register Number: B39B
District and Subdistrict: 4661B
Entry number: 124

If Elsie died in Basildon this looks like him

It certainly does seem a very confused family tree. I have applied to Dr Barnardos for further information, although not sure this will tell me a lot. it should tell me if I was adopted with siblings. Will let you know as soon as I get a response although it could be some time.

Hmmm, i think some of our posts are missing....first the family tree playing up now posts removed.
I don't mind, as long as they tell the author and explain why.

I have no idea John. Looks like there was a bit of bed hopping going on in the 1940's!!! Blame the war??
I'm trying to get my head around the events and get another timeline done...this time adding Elsie and her husbands.

Just took another look at the 1951 BMD for Elsie's marriage to Percy, and she is listed under 3 different names. Butcher, Snooks, Cooper.
And her son was born March 1946...6 months maximum after the marriage to Reginald. The same date under both names Butcher and Snooks as her maiden name as Sue said.
If the marriage to Reginald is recorded, then it must have been recognised.
So she married Albert Snooks in 1941, was 3 months pregnant when she married Reginald in 1945, then married Percy in 1951.

What do you think this means for me. I was definitely in Dr Barnardos from birth 1948, but I was not adopted out until 1951 (the year that Albert and Florence married), but presumably they knew each other before they married?

With thanks to Sue, some more info, though I'm afraid a few more cans of worms are exposed!!!
Rather me rewrite it, I have copied some of what Sue has said.
Please bear in mind that many relatives are/may be still alive, so some names are withdrawn. ;-)

From Sue....
"Elsie Anna Butcher b 30 Jan 1922 Hackney. Parents John Butcher and Louisa (nee Moore) Elsie died 15 Dec 2010 Basildon, Essex."

"There is a bit of a mystery regarding her marriage! There is one listed in 1945 Banbury Oxfordshire (to Reginald Cooper) and another in 1951 to Percy R Cooper in Hackney. I always knew her husband as Reg and their eldest son would appear to be registered twice in1946 Banbury, Oxfordshire - once as Cooper and once as Snooks! The second son was born in Banbury too, the rest in either Hackney or Romford in Essex."

And this juicy titbit......

"My take on the divorce from Albert is that Elsie had a fling in 1945/6 with Reg (perhaps Albert was away in the forces?) and that the divorce didn't go through until 1951 when they both remarried (Elsie possibly for the second time - first Cooper marriage bigamous or whatever the female equivalent is, perhaps)"


Thankyou Sue!!

OK, what can we make of that????? I thought at first maybe we found the wrong marriage for Elsie, but something is up!!! :-S

Just heard from John, and he says he may not have been adopted out until he was 3, and proposed this interesting scenario...he may have been fostered out before being adopted. Might explain Dennis and Rosemary. My father and his sisters were fostered out when they were young after their mother died, when my grandfather went back home to get another wife.

There are many reasons why they did these things...confused, did'nt care or something to hide?

I cannot see any other Florence Winifred Brockbank that would fit, yes she was 37 when she had John but it is not unusual her last child at 46... again not unheard of....let us no how you get on with contacting tree owners

Absolutely, but why the change from Collins to Brockbank as her surname on the birth certificate, that doesn't make sense, because no matter what, her maiden name remains the same.
A possibility, Florence took ill or had complications after John's birth, and someone else gave the details, such as a nurse or midwife, not knowing her maiden name.

If he was'nt the father she could still use his name on any childrens birth certs...even if he had died during the war

I have sent you a pm Wendy...but I think trying to contact someone from this family is the only way of solving it...although I do believe Florence who married Albert Snooks must be John's mother...marriage cert may hold more clues...as long as she did'nt lie

Another thought...if Thomas married Martha in 1945, then who is the father of Dennis and Rosemary?
Could this mean another Thomas?

Here's a thought.
If Florence and Thomas had Rosemary in 1947 (3rd quarter), and then John was born about 12 months later (September)...and we have to presume it is the same Florence...there are a couple of possibilities here.
We suspect Thomas died many years later, so he didn't die before John was born.
Did he leave before Rosemary was born?
If he was still around for her birth, then it would be most likely that as Florence would have to have got pregnant a few months after she was born, that Thomas is the father of John.

The plot thickens

Ahh TY ... Joan 1942.
Well that would eliminate any military action, Unless he went off to war 1942 or later.
So we have With Thomas Brockbank
Sheila 1934
Jean 1938
Joan 1942
Dennis 1946
Rosemary 1947

John 1948 (Father unknown)

With Albert Snooks
Leslie 1951
Kathleen 1952
Susan 1957

In 1952 they are listed at 6 Rutherford house, Bethnal Green living with his mother Sarah


The other birth was in 1942

I'm missing something. You said there were 5 Collins/Brockbank children, but I can see only 4...who am I missing?