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Trying to find this chap prior to his marriage.
He married Bertha Dane 1905 London. States age 23, occupation labourer Father Bartholomew Murray, engineer (deceased).
Witnesses George Beales, Annie Agnes Beales, Alice Louisa Dane (brides sister)
In 1911, Bertha is living with her mother & her daughter Kathleen Murray. States she is married & John must have still been alive because they had another daughter Margaret in 1913/14.
Possible that John in 1911 was with the Royal Naval Reserve
John Murray 28 married b Stornoway, but can´t be sure tis is him until I can find him in a previous census.
can´t find any trace of Bartholomew, but believe he was born in Ireland.

Any Miss Marples out there please??

Is this him?


World War I Draft Registration Cards, 1917-1918

Name: John Francis Joseph Murray
County: Cecil
State: Maryland
Birth Date: 13 Dec 1876
Race: White
FHL Roll Number: 1684367
DraftBoard: 0
Age: 41

Occupation: Farmer

Nearest Relative:

Height/Build:

Colour of Eyes/Hair:

Signature: View image



Source Citation: Registration Location: Cecil County, Maryland; Roll: 1684367; Draft Board: 0.



the signature on the card looks 'very' similar to his marriage certificate!


nearest relative is Maggie Murray (both of the same address)

??

1911 Wales Census

Name: Bartholomew Murray
Age in 1911: 44
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Burry Port
Civil parish: Swansea
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales
Street Address: 1 Kenley Terrace St Thomas Swansea
Marital Status: Married
Years Married: 8
Occupation: Engineer
Registration district: Swansea
Registration District Number: 594
Sub-registration district: Swansea

Bartholomew Murray 44
Alice Maud Murray 28

Thanks Choccy & BrummieJan.
Certainly looking good for Bartholomew although he was dead before 1905 according to the marriage cert. suppose it could be an older brother rather than the father.
The NOK on the draft card could be his daughter Margaret.
Will get digging.
Marion

Name: John Francis Joseph Murray
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1877
Spouse Name: Bertha Dane
Spouse Age: 22
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 8 Apr 1905
Parish: Chelsea St Luke
Borough: Kensington and Chelsea
Father Name: Bartholomew Murray
Spouse Father Name: William John Dane
Register Type: Parish Register

(looks like 28 on image)

Chris :)

Just to add that his address when he married was 31 Francis Street.

Thanks Chris & Marie Celeste.
I have that info. Just can´t work out who the h**l he was.

I do think that this is the chap that Choccy found the US draft record for:

1920 United States Federal Census about John F Murray
Name: John F Murray
Age: 43
Birth Year: abt 1877
Birthplace: Maryland
Home in 1920: Chesapeake City, Cecil, Maryland
Race: White
Gender: Male
Relation to Head of House: Head
Marital Status: Married
Spouse's Name: Maggie Murray
Father's Birthplace: Ireland
Mother's Birthplace: Ireland
Home owned: Rent
Able to read: Yes
Able to Write: Yes
Neighbors:

Household Members:
Name Age
John F Murray 43
Maggie Murray 45
Joseph Murray 19
John Murray 17
James Murray 15
Margaret Murray 13
Cornelius Murray 11
Lels Murray 9
Ellen Murray 7
George Murray 6
Thomas Murray 4 [4 1/12]
Cornelius Bowls 77

He's also in Maryland on the 1910 with Maggie & family.

Certainly looks right Marie Celeste.
What worries me is that Bertha Dane was alive & kicking in 1911 along with daughter Kathleen, living with Bertha´s Mum in Tower Hamlets & another daughter Maggie was born a couple of years later.
Quite sa distance apart, even if he had a bike!!

what about his supposed daughter born in 1913, if he was in USA in 1910?

Births Mar 1913 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Murray Margaret M Dane Chelsea 1a 663

Is this the one from the 1911:

Name: John Murray
Age in 1911: 37
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Birth Place: Stornoway, Scotland
Civil parish: China and East Indies
County/Island: Royal Navy
Country: England
Marital Status: Single
Registration District Number: 640
ED, institution, or vessel: Vessels
Piece: 34972

It says he is single. If he was in the Royal Navy at that time, his record should be in the National Archives documents online. There is one record coming up for a John Francis Murray:

Name Murray, John Francis
Official Number: 358764
Place of Birth: Limerick, Limerick

Date 30 June 1878

It will cost £3.50 to download the image.

Name: Katherine Murray
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1906 (1st April 1906)
Baptism Date: 22 Apr 1906
Father's Name: John Francis Murray (Labourer)
Mother's Name: Bertha Murray
Parish or Poor Law Union: Chelsea St Luke
Borough: Kensington and Chelsea
Register Type: Parish Registers

(address as Bertha 1911, Onslow Dwellings, Chelsea)

Chris :)

DANE, Martha S Head Widow F 61 1850 Charwoman Scotland
MURRAY, Bertha Daughter Married (age 28)
6 years F 5 1906 Tower Hamlets
MURRAY, Katherlein Granddaughter Single F 5 1906 School Chelsea
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
380 Reference:
RG14PN380 RG78PN12 RD4 SD1 ED6 SN895
Registration District:
Chelsea Sub District:
Chelsea North Enumeration District:
6 Parish:
Chelsea
Address:
Flat 4 Onslow Dwellings Pond Place Chelsea

probably doesn't help, but here is the death of Bertha Murray!


England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005

Name: Bertha Murray
Birth Date: 9 Apr 1882
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1982
Age at Death: 100
Registration district: Kensington and Chelsea
Inferred County: Greater London
Volume: 13
Page: 1483





London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906

Name: Bertha Dane
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1887 (date of birth shown to be 9th April 1882)
Baptism Date: 22 Mar 1887
Father's Name: William John Dane
Mother's Name: Martha Sarah Dane
Parish or Poor Law Union: Stepney St Dunstan and All Saints
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Register Type: Parish Registers



Source Citation: London Metropolitan Archives, Saint Dunstan And All Saints, Register of baptisms, P93/DUN, Item 031.

London, England, Electoral Registers, 1847-1965


Name: Bertha Murray
Electoral Year: 1954
Parliamentary Division: Chelsea
County or Borough: Kensington and Chelsea


living at 2 Chelsea Park Dwellings, London SW3 with Margaret Murray

Thanks Potty.
It´s not the one I found & I´m pretty sure it´s not this one.
Just found another part of a crew of a coal steamer registered in Grangemouth, berthed in Whitechapel.
Right age, married, right area but the crew are all Scottish & it says he was born Skye, so don´t think it´s him either.
Didn´t make a note of the one I found, but he was in the Royal Naval Reserve & born Stornoway. Needless to say, can´t find him now.

both still there in 1961

London, England, Electoral Registers, 1847-1965

Name: Margaret Murray
Electoral Year: 1961
Parliamentary Division: Chelsea
County or Borough: Kensington and Chelsea

Thanks all.
The info from the electoral registers is very useful.
Bertha lived to a ripe old age didn´t she. More than can be said for most of her family.
Looks like Margaret never married & John Francis never went anywhere near the sea!!!
Wonder where he was in 1911, if he wasn´t with Martha & Bertha?

I keep going back to Choccy's point about the signatures on the draft card and the marriage certificate - there are some strong similarities on parts of the signature but also some differences in others.

Have sent wisechild a copy of the draft card so she can have a look.

Thanks Marie Celeste.
Have replied to your pm.
Perhaps he had an amphibious bike :-D :-D :-D.
Funny that they only had 2 children. I had assumed Bertha died quite young, but clearly not.
Better look for a death for John Francis.

On electoral registers -

Have found a John Francis Murray in 1918 at 10 Chelsea Park Dwellings (coincidence?) - same buildings as Bertha and Margaret in later years

1910 - John Murray at 3 Onslow Dwellings
1913 - John Murray at 4 Chelsea Park Dwellings
1915 - John Murray at 10 Chelsea Park Dwellings


can't find in 1911 ! Typical ...