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Might be worth a google Keith, as FMP usually have free trial offer going...think you would be busy!.

Quite a few Collins?Collens about, also in Soham, as you look around on Census.

Chris :)

Ah the witnesses! How useful, thanks Chris! But it's Mary Ann Collin, and not Rebecca or Caroline, I wonder how she fits in!! Rebecca's sister was Elizabeth ...

And then there's John Collins & William Collen - same family maybe?

So what's your guess? Friend of the family or related?

Thanks again Chris, these records have added to my tree, I'd only found partners for James Royal & Martha so far.

(other Baptisms)

Day:31
Month:Dec
Year:1820
Forenames:John
Surname:PARR
Relationship:son of
Father forenames:Thomas
Fathers occupation:waterman
Mother forenames:Fanny
Birth Day:
Birth Month:
Birth Year:
Abode:otp
Place:Isleham
County:Cambridgeshire,England

Day:14
Month:Mar
Year:1824
Forenames:William
Surname:Parr
Relationship:son of
Father forenames:Thomas
Fathers occupation:waterman
Mother forenames:Frances
Abode:otp
Place:Isleham

Day:1
Month:Jun
Year:1828
Forenames:Thomas
Surname:PARR
Relationship:son of
Father forenames:Thomas
Fathers occupation:waterman
Mother forenames:Fanny
Abode:otp
Place:Isleham

Day:17
Month:May
Year:1829
Forenames:Mary
Surname:Parr
Relationship:dau of
Father forenames:Thomas
Fathers occupation:waterman
Mother forenames:Mary (probably error)
Abode:otp
Place:Isleham
County:Cambridgeshire

Day:3
Month:Jun
Year:1832
Forenames:Thomas
Surname:PARR
Relationship:son of
Father forenames:Thomas
Fathers occupation:waterman
Mother forenames:Frances
Abode:otp
Place:Isleham
County:Cambridgeshire,England


Burial
First name(s): Thomas
Last name: PARR
Date of burial 1830
Age at death: 3
Calculated year of birth: 1827
Place of burial Isleham
Dedication: St Andrew
County: Cambridgeshire
Isleham St Andrew


Day:3
Month:Jun
Year:1841
Groom forename:John
Groom surname:PARR
Groom's residence:of East End Isleham
Groom's condition:bac
Groom's occupation:waterman
Groom's age:minor
Groom's father's forename:Thomas
Groom's father's surname:
Groom's father's occupation:waterman
Bride forename:Jane
Bride surname:TAYLOR
Bride's residence:of West St Isleham
Bride's condition:sp
Bride's occupation:[blank]
Bride's age:minor
Bride's father's forename:Robert
Bride's father's surname:
Bride's father's occupation:lab
By Licence:by banns
Place:Isleham
County:Cambridgeshire,England
Witness 1 forename:William (x)
Witness 1 surname:COLLEN
Witness 2 forename:Ann
Witness 2 surname:TAYLOR


Day:15
Month:Oct
Year:1850
Groom forename:Dennis (x)
Groom surname:HOWARD
Groom's residence:otp
Groom's condition:bac
Groom's occupation:lab
Groom's age:full
Groom's father's forename:Henry
Groom's father's surname:WATSON
Groom's father's occupation:wheelwright
Bride forename:Mary (x)
Bride surname:PARR
Bride's residence:otp
Bride's condition:sp
Bride's occupation:[blank]
Bride's age:full
Bride's father's forename:Thomas
Bride's father's surname:
Bride's father's occupation:waterman
By Licence:by banns
Place:Isleham
County:Cambridgeshire,England
Witness 1 forename:Thomas (x)
Witness 1 surname:PARR
Witness 2 forename:Ann (x)
Witness 2 surname:WATSON

Day:11
Month:Nov
Year:1844
Groom forename:William (x)
Groom surname:PARR
Groom's residence:of Isleham Waterside
Groom's condition:bac
Groom's occupation:waterman
Groom's age:20
Groom's father's forename:Thomas
Groom's father's surname:
Groom's father's occupation:waterman
Bride forename:Eliza (x)
Bride surname:FINCH
Bride's residence:of Isleham Waterside
Bride's condition:sp
Bride's occupation:[blank]
Bride's age:of age
Bride's father's forename:George
Bride's father's surname:
Bride's father's occupation:boatwright
By Licence:by banns
Place:Isleham
County:Cambridgeshire,England
Witness 1 forename:John (x)
Witness 1 surname:COLLINS
Witness 2 forename:Ann (x)
Witness 2 surname:FINCH

Chris :)

Day:23
Month:Nov
Year:1817
Groom forename:Thomas (x)
Groom surname:PARR
Groom's residence:otp
Groom's condition:bac
Bride forename:Fanny (x)
Bride surname:BROWN
Bride's residence:otp
Bride's condition:sp
By Licence:by banns
Place:Isleham
County:Cambridgeshire,England
Witness 1 forename:Thomas (x)
Witness 1 surname:PAMMENT
Witness 2 forename:John
Witness 2 surname:DRAKE

Baptism (Find My Past)
Day:5
Month:May
Year:1839
Forenames:Martha
Surname:PARR
Relationship:dau of
Father forenames:Thomas
Fathers occupation:waterman
Mother forenames:Frances
Place:Isleham
County:Cambridgeshire,England


Day:28
Month:May
Year:1863
Groom forename:George (x)
Groom surname:FLEET
Groom's residence:otp
Groom's condition:bac
Groom's occupation:lab
Groom's age:24
Groom's father's forename:James
Groom's father's surname:
Groom's father's occupation:farmer
Bride forename:Martha
Bride surname:PARR
Bride's residence:otp
Bride's condition:sp
Bride's occupation:[blank]
Bride's age:24
Bride's father's forename:Thomas
Bride's father's surname:
Bride's father's occupation:lab
By Licence:by banns
Place:Isleham
County:Cambridgeshire,England
Witness 1 forename:Thomas
Witness 1 surname:FRANKS
Witness 2 forename:Mary Ann
Witness 2 surname:COLLINS


Deaths Sep 1919 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------
Fleet Martha 81 Newmarket 3b 438

Chris :)

A further attempt at tidying up loose ends, although I still haven't found the link to my own tree.

Tracey above spotted mother and daughter Sparke visiting the Fleets in 1871.

freebmd suggests Caroline Collin & James Sparke married June 1844 which would be a possible for Rebecca born 1850. I ordered the birth certificate and this confirms parents James & Caroline, birth for Rebecca 10 September 1849.

GR finds Rebecca in 1851 & 1871 census, the 1871 is the record we have already seen with her visiting Martha Fleet, in 1851 she is with her parents Caroline 1825 & James 1824, and sister Elizabeth 1848.

I have yet to find a link between the Collin / Sparke family and the Parrs / Fleets.

Thank you yet again, mgnv, that's very helpful and underlines how much detail there is left for me to learn, I think I need to study Cyndi's List

Lets look at some of Tracey's hits - firstly:
Deaths Jun 1884 (>99%)
Parr Fanny 87 Newmarket 3b 306

Now I can click on "Newmarket" then the more info "here" links and see:
NEWMARKET REGISTRATION DISTRICT
Sub-districts : Bottisham, Burwell, Cheveley, Gazeley, Haverhill, Moulton, Newmarket, Soham.
Registers now held by : Cambridgeshire (Cambridge) and Suffolk (Bury St. Edmunds).
[along with the parishes/villages/etc in Newmarket RD]

One can buy a BMD cert from the GRO or the local office that now holds the rego's.
Some local offices have their indexes partly online - see http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/local_bmd
One should get essentially the same cert - up to transcription differences between the furst copy sent to the GRO in 1888 (or whatever) and the transcription that was just made for you (since most local offices don't have the ability to send you a scan of the original rego, but this is changing.
["Essentially" as there is a minor change in the preprinted wording reflecting who holds the original rego.]

Here, we're interested in https://www.camdex.org.uk/search.cfm

DEATHS Name(s)- recorded with entry Age/DOB Year
331/SOH/19/180 PARR Fanny 87 1884

MARRIAGE/CIVIL P M/CP Name(s)- recorded with entry Year
332/C-ISAM1/333 M PARR James SANGSTER Jane 1858

MARRIAGE/CIVIL P M/CP Name(s)- recorded with entry Year
332/C-ISAM2/158 M PARR James MOODY Sarah REED Sarah 1886

Although we're chasing after the same cert, the local office might have a difft idea abt what info helps to identify it.
So one might see a mum's maiden surname on a pre-1911q3 birth (but not at camdex), and an age at death pre-1866 - at camdex, this depends on the subdistrict, but it does appear pre-1866 in Soham.
Some local indexes index by year of event rather than the quarter it was rego'ed in.
Finally, there's the info that the GRO or local office need to locate the entry.
The GRO want the vol & page #, then use the name to locate the cert desired - although I'll bet somewhere there's two David Jones births on the same page.
The local ref has 3 elements:
firstly, an identifier for the set of rego's - a subdistrict name (or code) for Bs & Ds or a church name (or code) for Ms;
secondly, an identifier (usually a sequence #) of which rego is needed;
finally, a page or entry # - if a page # is specified, then one also needs a name.

Usually, an entry # is used for Ms - a page is often used for Bs & DS (but camdex use an entry #).
When an entry # is used for Ms, obviously the spouse has the same entry #.

Now camdex don't decode their codes for you, but it's easy to guess the 331/SOH stands for Soham, /19 refers to Soham's 19th rego for deaths and 180 is an entry # (all local regos had 500 entrys, 5 per page for Bs & Ds, 2 per page for Ms).
I've no idea what church 332/C-ISAM is, but the "C-" probably means it's a C of E church - the alternatives pre-1898 were jewish (often a J- or S- code), quakers (often a Q- or F- code) and the registrar's own rego (which also had non-conformist marrs he was required to attend if they lacked their own official rego - often an RO- or R- code).
Maybe http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/271173
(I also guess 331/BOT=Bottisham, 331/CHV=Cheveley - I've not noticed any others, maybe they're in Suffolk or another time period)

I should have said Bs & Ds were rego'ed at the subdistrict office - obviously, if I'm living in Isleham, it's a lot easier to go 5km W to Soham, rather than 10km S to Newmarket.

======================

The only Isleham piece on FreeCEN is RG12/1295 (RG12=1891) E.g.,

1891 Census
Piece: RG12/1295 Place: Newmarket -Cambridgeshire Enumeration District: 4
Civil Parish: Isleham Ecclesiastical Parish: Isleham
Folio: 67 Page: 10 Schedule: 64
Address: Waterside Drove
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
PARR James Head M M 56 Coal Porter(Em'ee) Cambridgeshire - Isleham
PARR Sarah Wife M F 58 Cambridgeshire - Isleham
PARR Thomas Wm Son S M 23 Postman(Em'ee) Cambridgeshire - Isleham
PARR James Son S M 16 General Labourer(Em'ee) Cambridgeshire - Isleham

That's a very useful summary, mgnv, thank you. I wasn't aware of freecen, I'll check it out, not least in the hope that the sheets missing from the other sources might be there! Ah! Seems their scope is 1841 - 1891, so the search for Thomas William and his brood in 1911 continues ... I was aware of FMP but haven't used it, maybe that should be the next stop.

"However, only the 1871 & 1881 are worth bothering with; none of the others show the rest of the household with a lookup of one member."

I would, imagine that this is something which might be fixed retrospectively - if there was demand and funding? After all the hard work of transcription has been done, the rest is only cross links in a database - or am I missing something?

And thanks also for the idea about ND. It's possible he worked for a coaching company, but as his father was employed in a coaching inn it's also possible the inn was his employer.

The first census transcription was FamilySearch's 1881.
Their transcription was online for England, Wales, IoM & Cannel Islands. Scotland was only available on CD (now out of stock) and by purchase from ScotlandsPeople (at a cheap reate of abt 20p).
Ancestry transcribed the census 1841-1911 excl 1881; they still use the FS transcription for that (and offer it free to all).
FMP transcribed 1841-1911 - they also offer 1881 free.
FS now use the FMP transcription for all their transcrptions, incl 1881; FS have a link to the FMP image, but it needs FMP credits to view (unless you access it at one of the FS centres scattered abt the UK (world really)).
However, only the 1871 & 1881 are worth bothering with; none of the others show the rest of the household with a lookup of one member.
The only other general transcription is FreeCEN's: http://www.freecen.org.uk/
However their coverage is very variable - they do say what they've transcribed, and I think their transcriptions are the most accurate.
FreeCEN does have what I consider to be the most convenient transcription display, and they also let you just click to get an adjacent household.
Actually, anyone can search Ancestry or FMP - it's just that you won't get to see many details without a sub, although one can guess stuff (like pob=Hoxton) and see if you still get the hit.

======================

I have some rellies who ran an inn. I think they were asked to distinguish between servants who worked in the household, and those who worked at the inn but stayed in the household, so one sees on their censuses "General servant domestic" and "General servant inn".
My guess is your "Coachman ND" is a Coachman non-domestic - possibly he worked for a local coaching company.

OK Chris, thank you very much, that seems pretty conclusive, I'll see whether I can find out where I got the other date from ...

The additional information is valuable too, thanks again Chris!

Baptism
Day:16
Month:Sep
Year:1866
Forenames:John Royal
Surname:Parr
Relationship:of
Father forenames:James
Fathers occupation:lab
Mother forenames:Jane
Birth Day:
Birth Month:
Birth Year:
Abode:otp
Place:Isleham
County:Cambridgeshire
Notes:age 3 years
Record source:Cambridgeshire Baptisms


Births Jun 1863 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------
PARR John Newmarket 3b 566


http://www.camdex.org.uk/search.cfm

Name Year Reference
Birth PARR John 1863 331/SOH/18/125


(had a check Keith, but just the above)

Chris :)

Baptism (Uncle, and Father below)
Day:8
Month:Jan
Year:1837
Forenames:Royal
Surname:PARR
Relationship:son of
Father forenames:Thomas
Fathers occupation:waterman
Mother forenames:Frances
Birth Day:
Birth Month:
Birth Year:
Abode:otp
Place:Isleham

Baptism
Day:14
Month:Sep
Year:1834
Forenames:James
Surname:Parr
Relationship:son of
Father forenames:Thomas
Fathers occupation:waterman
Mother forenames:Frances
Birth Day:
Birth Month:
Birth Year:
Abode:otp
Place:Isleham
County:Cambridgeshire

Chris, could you look up one other thing for me please? I have a note (unsupported by references, obviously dates from when I didn't know what was important ) of John Royal baptism 23 March 1863 which fits with his calculated date of birth (eg from census).

It seems unlikely that he would have been baptised twice. Can you also see on the CD a record for JR from 1863?

Isleham. St. Andrew (Parish cd)

Baptisms
1866 Sept 16 (all same time) Fanny age 6 John Royal age 3 Martha (no age) all of James and Jane otp lab)

Chris :)

(some Isleham also on Find My Past)

Hi Chris!

Thanks for looking. You mention baptism records for "his" siblings, that means Thomas William Parr's siblings? As far as I can tell, these are:

Mary 1860
Fanny 1861
Martha about 1861
John Royal 1863
Thomas William 1867
Mary 1870
Sarah Jane 1872
Jessie 1873
James 1875

Might you be able to confirm that this is what you see? Is this from the cfhs site again?

Another Parr who is also on this trail said the following:

"I have done complete searches on TW b 1870 Isleham and b1876 Cambs with no success. He comes up in the 1901 census if you enter his daughter Ellen b 1898 Hoxton.

There his age is given as 25 last birthday, and so I have him as b 1875 or 6. Unfortunately his POB is given as Cambs, which is not helpful,"

I also found this:

Births Jun 1867 (>99%) possible
Parr Thomas William Newmarket 3b 562

which is possible. Bit of a mystery man?

Same here Keith, never had any luck...

Chris :)

(can see Isleham Baptisms for his siblings, but not him)

This is an update to tidy up the Batt / Ball confusion in the thread.
The name should be Batt. Alice Emma Tidy (sister of Edith Louise Tidy, who was wife of Thomas William Parr) married Thomas Batt about 1893. It looks as if Thomas Batt died young, left wife and kids without support, so they went to live with her sister.
I'd dearly like to find the 1911 census record for Thomas William Parr but have so far failed.
Hope this helps someone who happens on the thread.

I'm sorry, I've just made a fool of myself. Unk. Unknown. Sorry!

But those records are spot on, Chris, thanks a lot, it was exactly what I needed!

Keith

Day:25
Month:Oct
Year:1886
Groom forename:James
Groom surname:PARR
Groom's residence:of Waterside [Isleham]
Groom's condition:widr
Groom's occupation:lab
Groom's age:52
Groom's father's forename:Thomas
Groom's father's surname:
Groom's father's occupation:waterman
Bride forename:Sarah
Bride surname:REED
Bride's residence:of East End [Isleham]
Bride's condition:wid
Bride's occupation:charwoman
Bride's age:53
Bride's father's forename:Jeremiah
Bride's father's surname:MOODY
Bride's father's occupation:lab
By Licence:by banns
Place:Isleham
County:Cambridgeshire,England
Witness 1 forename:William
Witness 1 surname:PALMER
Witness 2 forename:Rebecca
Witness 2 surname:MARTIN
Data provider:Cambridgeshire Family History Society


Day:16
Month:Nov
Year:1858
Groom forename:James
Groom surname:PARR
Groom's residence:otp
Groom's condition:bac
Groom's occupation:lab
Groom's age:25
Groom's father's forename:Thomas
Groom's father's surname:
Groom's father's occupation:lab
Bride forename:Jane (x)
Bride surname:SANGSTER
Bride's residence:otp
Bride's condition:sp
Bride's occupation:[blank]
Bride's age:19
Bride's father's forename:John
Bride's father's surname:
Bride's father's occupation:lab
By Licence:by banns
Place:Isleham
County:Cambridgeshire,England
Witness 1 forename:Christopher
Witness 1 surname:SANXTER
Witness 2 forename:Martha
Witness 2 surname:PARR

Chris :)


http://www.cfhs.org.uk/Search.html

(above link for Cambridgeshire Baptisms and Burials 1801 - 1837)

I wasn't sure whether to start a new thread or revive this one - so plumped for this one on the basis that some of the background information is above.

I'd like help, please, to sort out some confusion around James Parr 1834, one generation earlier than the thread name.

According to the information in this thread from LiverBird:
Marriages Dec 1858 (>99%)
Fletcher John Newmarket 3b 1205
Fuller Honor Newmarket 3b 1205
******Parr James Newmarket 3b 1205
*****Sangster Jane Newmarket 3b 1205

Marriages Dec 1886 (>99%)
HOUGHTON Ann Newmarket 3b 1084
LAMBERT Edward Newmarket 3b 1084
*****PARR James Newmarket 3b 1084
*****REED Sarah Newmarket 3b 1084

This makes sense in combination with a death record for Jane of 1877 & an 1881 census record showing James and children but no wife.

A fellow researcher on GR also has James Parr married to Sarah & Jane but he has Jane Unk & Sarah Unk.

Now it could be that we are both right - eg Sarah was born Unk, married Reed, then married James, or not! Please could someone here find records which would illuminate what happened?

Many thanks

Keith

Thanks Tracey, will do.

Keith