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On marriage cert is says Richard

County Staffordshire
Place Wolverhampton
Church St Peters
RegisterNumber 430442
MarriageDate 25 Nov 1860
GroomForename James
GroomSurname GREENWOOD
GroomAge 28
GroomParish
GroomCondition
GroomOccupation Boiler maker
GroomAbode Bilston St Leonards
BrideForename Henrietta
BrideSurname ATTWOOD
BrideAge 26
BrideParish
BrideCondition
BrideOccupation
BrideAbode Bilston St Leonards
GroomFatherForename Richard
GroomFatherSurname GREENWOOD
GroomFatherOccupation Farmer
BrideFatherForename William
BrideFatherSurname GOODWAY
BrideFatherOccupation Carpenter
WitnessOneForename William
WitnessOneSurname KEEN
WitnessTwoForename Catharine
WitnessTwoSurname GOODWAY
Notes Banns; Recorded by H HOUSMAN
FileNumber 4750

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1838
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference

GREENWOOD Hannah Oldham Above Town Oldham WHITEHEAD OAT/1/210

1861

Name: James Greenwood
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Henrietta Greenwood
Gender: Male
Where born: Lankart Balton

Civil parish: Sedgley
Ecclesiastical parish: Coseley
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England


Registration district: Dudley
Sub-registration district: Sedgley
ED, institution, or vessel: 46
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 106
Piece: 2052
Folio: 47
Page Number: 19
Household Members: Name Age
James Greenwood 28
Henrietta Greenwood 27


Birthplace is recorded as Bolton............

Ahh Reggie excellent

Where did you find that?

On the 1841 Census

Hannah is living with Betty Greenwood in Oldham Above Town with William

James is living with Susanna Whitehead his Grandmother

Richard is named on James marriage cert,

But is there a marriage for Richard and Betty?

On each census James birthplace is different.

Two do say the Oldham area

How do we know he's living with his grandmother. 1841 doesn't show relationships. Does Whitehead come up later?


Ozi

I know all about James

Its his dads?? marriage I want to find.

What else could Susanna be?


Name: Susannah Whitehead
Age: 65
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1776
Gender: Female

Civil parish: Prestwich Cum Oldham
Hundred: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation: View image

Registration district: Ashton and Oldham
Sub-registration district: Oldham above Town
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 546
Book: 12
Folio: 14
Page Number: 25
Household Members: Name Age
Susannah Whitehead 65
Ralph Whitehead 35
Joseph Whitehead 32
James Greenwood 10


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Children even younger than 10 boarded out in those times, especially as he wasn't helping dad on the farm.

However, I didn't say he wasn't a grandchild, just that you can't be sure.

From 1860 to 1881 he's born either 1832 or 1833. If this is his death
Deaths Jun 1883 GREENWOOD James 52 Wolverhampton 6b 382
then he's born 1831 but that is totally dependent on the knowledge of the informant.

Also you say 2 census show him born in Oldham. That's only if you count 1841. Otherwise it's:
1861: born 1833, Bolton, Lancs
1871: born 1832, Bilston, Staff
1881: born 1833, Oldham, Lancs

Please don't get tetchy, Simon. We're trying to help, but there is no link to 1841 unless we can find him in 1851, and James Greenwood is a fairly common name.

Ozi

I wasnt getting tetchy, thanks for your help

That's his death

if hannah and Williams dad was Richard then it is likely Betty Whiteead married Richard Greenwood but when?

Have you followed up this bloke? He's an Ag lab. Perhaps James was exaggerating his occupation.

1841 England Census
Name: Richard Greenwood
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1801
Gender: Male
Where born: Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Prestwich Cum Oldham
Hundred: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: Ringley Old Brow

Occupation: Ag lab

Registration district: Bury
Sub-registration district: Pilkington
Piece: 548
Book: 8
Folio: 22
Page Number: 6
Household Members: Name Age
Richard Greenwood 40
Betty Greenwood 30
Alice Greenwood 3
Thomas Greenwood 1


By the age of the children it looks as if they haven't been married long. Does that mean there is a possibility James came from a former marriage? That may be a reason he's not with his family in 1841.

Ozi

That is a another Richard married to another Betty but they are are different couple.

This Richard was born in Pilkingtoin and ''my; Richard was born in Crompton.

This Richard had children with two women Sarah Barlow and a Betty.
Alice, Betty and Martha with Sarah
Alice, Thomas, Ellen, William and Elizabeth with Betty.

There is no connection with Hannah, William and James to this family.

Thanks for everyones help I am more convinced that Richard Greenwood married Betty Whitehead had 3 chldren but died in his late 20's before the 1841 census.

I cannot find a marriage but James Greenwood marriage cert gives a Richard Greenwood as his father.
The only one I can find that fits is in Crompton which is in Oldham that fits to James later Census records.
I need to investigate Crompton churches of the time.

just for ref
I presume you have traced back via this family

James GREENWOOD Head M Male 48 Oldham, Lancashire, England Boiler Maker
Henrietta GREENWOOD Wife M Female 46 Bilston, Stafford, England
Mary GREENWOOD Daur Female 17 Bilston, Stafford, England Forger In Japan Wks
James GREENWOOD Son Male 14 Bilston, Stafford, England Works In Boiler Yard
Sarah GREENWOOD Daur Female 11 Bilston, Stafford, England Scholar
Henrietta GREENWOOD Daur Male 8 Bilston, Stafford, England Scholar

Source Information:
Dwelling 1 William St
Census Place Wednesfield, Stafford, England
Family History Library Film 1341673
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 2813 / 103
Page Number 18

please could you explain why you think the James living with Susannah Whitehead is your James as this one would have been born in 1830/31

If I remember rightly you have been searching for James Greenwood born 1832 for some time

Shaw Chapel (later Holy Trinity) is the only church in Crompton that was open in 1832 and I don't think it was licensed for marriages until 1836

Hi Ann

I am looking for a marriage of Betty Whitehead.


If she married Richard Greenwood then she might just be James Greenwoods mother.

In terms of the years not quite matching, then the census's were not always accurate. Look at the location of birth variances.

I looked up Shaw Chapel and saw that they couldn't have been married there.
So where did the good folk of Shaw and Crompton marrry prior to 1836?

Maybe that marriage cert belongs to this James


Name: James Greenhalgh
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 01 Apr 1832
Baptism/Christening Place: Heywood, Lancashire, England
Birth Date: 07 Mar 1831
:
Father's Name: Richard Greenhalgh

Mother's Name: Nancy Greenhalgh

Hi Mike

Another possibility, but Heywood is about 15 miles from Crompton.

it is very frustrating.

I would guess they married in Oldham itself - many churches but only St Mary's on lan-opc

but Richard's wife may not have come from Crompton so they could have been married in her parish

have you found Richard Greenwood a farmer on any census?

Mike* - Greenhalgh - Greenwood?

Doh !

Thanks Ann.

Entered Greenwood in search but Clicked wrong record result.

In which case I can'r see a James Greenwood 1831/32 with father Richard. ( who incidently disappears before 1841 .... did he ever exist ?)

it does make you wonder if Richard was one of the fictitious fathers named on a marriage certificate to save face

Says Richard on marriage cert and there is a death for a Richard Greenwood in 1838.

My theory stacks up other than I can't find a birth for James or a marriage for Richard.