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I would rather not keep trying to explain by pm

The death in 1994 did NOT match the birth in 1914 which I have said many times now

If you were born in November you would not have your birth registered in September

If anything the Ellen Rosenberg death in 1992 matches the Ellen Sweetman birth in 1914

North,

Why are you not trusting all the information thats been found,!!!.
your family situation is more common than you think,

If get a birth certificate for the children of Harold and Ellen.......that will confirm no marriage took place,as you know,

ask and find out who the Sweetman grandparents were to your mother,,,then aquire the birth certificate for the 1914 birth of Ellen Sweetman Manchester,,,,,,and you may be suprised that the birth 1914 is that of your Ellen Sweetman.a single lady from birth to death.as Ellen Osbaldenston....

I am new to this. i am grateful from everyone helpin gme
. its a lot of information to take in from.all of you.

I have been reading all the message from begininng.

so I can understand all he messages.

so going right back to the very beginning, you said your grandmother died as Ellen Osbaldeston in 1956 in Oldham?


Is that correct????


I looked at Lancashire bmds,

I could find NO Ellen Sweetmans dying 1953 to 1956

and just this one Osbaldeston


Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1955

OSBALDESTON Ellen 84 Littleborough Rochdale L/34B/44




Rochdale is of course in the Oldham area



Is this your grandmother??






If so, may I suggest that your information is not all correct.




This is the problem with family stories ............ whether it is your mother or an aged aunt or cousin!


I can tell you from personal experience that even mothers don't know everything about their parents ..........................

My mother always said her father's birthday was Dec 25 1884

NOPE ....... he was born on January 9 1885. That is only 2 weeks out, but was not discovered until after he died in 1963, and Mum had died in 1961 so she never knew that she had been told a lie by him!




sylvia

oops


no it can't be your grandmother



this one is too old!!

this is the one sylvia

Name: Ellen Osbaldeston
Birth Date: abt 1909
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1956
Age at Death: 47
Registration district: Oldham
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 10f
Page: 34

She died in 1956, oldham as ellen sweetman ,

they thought she was a widower to harold osbaldeston.

There isnt a death record of ellen sweetman

my mother knows nothing about her parents.

She died in Oldham 1956,Sylvia,))
Ellen Osbaldenston.

10f--34,

North is confused by her age as it gives 47....she was infact to be 42/43,and North is thinking that maybe Sweetman could have been a previous married name,,,,,,,,but the childrens births during the 1940s prove otherwise,
someone has given the wrong age at death.. :-D


North,,,,,,,,,,,,Ellen death wasnt registered as Ellen Sweetman...but in Harolds surname.........but she was his commonlaw wife,,

You already said she died as Ellen Osbaldeston...which she did as the record shows.

You also said you have the death cert...Who registered the death?

well, what is on a death certificate is only what is known to the informant!


The only information you can be certain is accurate on a death certificate are the following .................


date and place of death
cause of death
name of doctor or coroner
name and address of informant



EVERYTHING else is hearsay ........... what the deceased person has told the informant



and as I posted above, even adult children and adult grandchildren do not know accurate details about their parents/grandparents.



sylvia

The hospital made a mistake. my grandmother didnt give much info, she must have been very ill.

Im sure there are an accurate info withs record records

If she had been living with Harold Osbaldeston for a number of years, then everyone would have known her as Osbaldeston ........... so no surprise that she was buried under that name.

It, after all, was her legal name by usage!

Your mother and uncle would have been too young to be the informant(s) for the certificate.

So .......... get that certificate and see who the informant was.



sylvia

If she was born Ellen Sweetman she would be one of these

Births Dec 1908 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sweetman Ellen Solihull 6d 623


Surname First name(s) Mother District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Sep 1914 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SWEETMAN Ellen Smith Manchester 8d 504

but I am doubtful about either one of them now

all of you are aking who recorded the death certoficate. how would that help me who wrote the info.

North


There will NOT be any other "accurate" information with any other records.


Your grandmother lived with Harold as Mrs Osbaldeston.

Everyone, all the neighbours, church people, doctors, etc etc, knew her as Mrs Osbaldeston


She wouldn't have gone around telling anyone that "I'm not really Mrs Osbaldeston"!! A woman of that age at that period of time would have kept her real marital status to herself!


A common-law marriage was, and is, very common ............. but people did not go around advertising it!


Believe me, I grew up in Oldham in the '50s, and I know how prim and proper they were outside the front door.


No-one would have known they were not married, except just possibly the very closest family, and they would have kept the secret.


She would have gone into hospital as Mrs Osbaldeston, her records would have been under that name ............

........... and unfortunately, as she died in hospital, the informant is probably going to be a hospital administrator or social worker.





sylvia

was your mother baptized?

If so, does she know who her godparents are/were?


They MIGHT know some of the story.




We are not asking you who recorded the certificate ...... we are asking you to look on the certificate to see who the INFORMANT was.

That is the person who gave the information to the Registrar ............. it is usually a relation (spouse, child, parent, etc), but may also be a neighbour, the matron of a nursing home, or a staff member of a nursing home or hospital.

A relative would possibly have known that she was not officially Osbaldeston ................... anyone else would not have known.



sylvia

just as a matter of interest, when did Harold Osbaldeston die?

people were private then. they kept their secrets well. even close family dont know thir e secrets. they were afraid of any stigma then.

my 2cd option is see if there is an sweetman is in somebody tree.

I have searched the ellens who married a sweetman.

I have searched everything about ellen sweetmans.

maybe its time to accept I might never find her date of birth.

she might have lived with somebody but didn't get married.

North.

If you look up your mothers and uncles birth registration,

they are under both surnames,

the fathers surname and shows a maiden name......and also registered in the single maiden name of the mother,

the age on a death certificate could have been a mistake frrom one register to another offical one and is not so important to anyone else as you know it is wrong.by a couple of years.

When you go on this course they will explain how registration works,

??

Name: Harold Osbaldeston
Spouse Surname: Elizabeth M Webb
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1942
Registration district: Bournemouth
Inferred County: Dorset
Volume Number: 2b
Page Number: 2098


Name: Harold Osbaldeston
Birth Date: 6 Nov 1920
Date of Registration: Nov 2005
Age at Death: 85
Registration district: Tameside
Inferred County: Greater Manchester
Register number: C62A
District and Subdistrict: 014/1C
Entry number: 260


Name: Harold Osbaldeston
Spouse Surname: Bertha Gee
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1920
Registration district: Ashton
Inferred County: Lancashire, Cheshire
Volume Number: 8d
Page Number: 1314

Name: Harold Osbaldeston
Birth Date: 6 Nov 1899
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1971
Age at Death: 71
Registration district: Ashton
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 10b
Page: 333