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Thanks for the all your help guys/gals. I really appreciate you taking the time to help a poor ol guy with his research.
I guess I'm going to have to keep looking,for info on my g-grandfather James life in England before he came to Canada. As the info you posted I had already in my data.
So i'm not really any further along than I was before I posted it.
But you never know when a new fact might pop-up.
Cos if you ask the same question in a different way.
I find it sometimes jogs a persons memory.[and they say ah! I saw that somewhere.] and answer you.
Thanks again ...Gary

Thanks Potty, I have been incontact with the Records office on numerous occasions and allthough they were of some assistance. I only received a few facts that pertained to my family in question. They mentioned a lot of records were lost at the time. ...Gary

Gary, there is no site that gives the father's name for all British marriages. There are some sites that have parish records which do give fathers' names and occupations. There is one for Lancashire but I cannot find a baptism for James.

Regarding All Souls church, records are available. This is copied from the lancsopc site:

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/

All Souls Eaton St, Vauxhall

All Souls parish was established around 1853, as the newly formed Parish Church of Vauxhall. Earlier services where held in a licensed school room. The Foundation Stone of the church was laid on 1st August 1854 but the Church was not opened until 1856.

The church was closed in 1923 under the provision of the 'Liverpool and Wigan Churches Act. 1904. The last service being held on 6 May. The parish was merged with that of St. Bartholomew's, whilst a new church bearing the name All Souls was built at Springwood. The new church was consecrated on 21 May 1927.

The Church was located near the Leeds Liverpool Canal, the parish records contain baptisms of children of the Boatmen that worked on the Canal network.

Original Parish Records are held at the Liverpool Record Office Repository.

Repository: Liverpool Record Office
Ref No 283 ALL

Registers:
Baptisms 1853 - 1923
Marriages 1856 - 1923
Other 1903 - 1939

Liverpool Records Office site:

http://liverpool.gov.uk/libraries-and-archives/archives-local-and-family-history/

Are there any british marriage sites on-line that gives the fathers names on the marriage license as the ones here in N.S. Canada do.

I have James & Ellens 1858 marriage certificate.But no birth certificates. But i do know from a letter I received from the Central Library that the James Henry and Margaret in the workhouse show up agian in the 1891 census and my g-grandfater came to Canada in 1882 so that rules them out.as relatives

Gary, have you actually bought the 1858 marriage and birth certs to rule them out?

Hi Potty No the Margaret you mentioned isn't the one I have put in my post. That one is the sister of the James Henry, they were the children of a John and the for mentioned Harriet
Livingstone. Harriet was born in London England, her maiden name was North.
The one I have was the daughter of a James Livingstone according to a friend in england who is descended from her and her husband William S Fletcher.
This Margaret as a sister to my g-grandfather is only what we have assumed to be true as all the past relatives check out.
His sisters name could have been something else?
That's why I need to find written evidence that Ellen & James had children. As I a-fore mentioned they do not show-up on either the 1861 or the 1871 census of which might of shown whether they had children.

1861 census shows Margaret married to a John; James is Henry James, so doesn't look as if that is your Margaret.

That family were in the workhouse in 1871:

1871 England Census
about Margaret Livingstone
Name: Margaret Livingstone
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Thos Darlington
Gender: Female
Where born: West Derby, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Walton on the Hill
Ecclesiastical parish: Walton St Mary
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: Walton
ED, institution, or vessel: West Derby Union Workhouse

1871 England Census
about Margaret Livingstone
Name: Margaret Livingstone
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Thos Darlington
Gender: Female
Where born: West Derby, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Walton on the Hill
Ecclesiastical parish: Walton St Mary
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: Walton
ED, institution, or vessel: West Derby Union Workhouse

1871 England Census
about Margaret Livingstone
Name: Margaret Livingstone
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Thos Darlington
Gender: Female
Where born: West Derby, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Walton on the Hill
Ecclesiastical parish: Walton St Mary
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: Walton
ED, institution, or vessel: West Derby Union Workhouse

Harriet Livingstone 45
James Livingstone 16
Margaret Livingstone 11

Is this a coincidence?

1891 England Census
about Margaret Fletcher
Name: Margaret Fletcher
[Margaret Livingstone]
Age: 31
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Head
Mother's Name: Harriet Livingstone
Gender: Female
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: West Derby
Ecclesiastical parish: Stanley St Ann
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: West Derby (Rural)
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2999
Folio: 141
Page Number: 40
Household Members: Name Age
Margaret Fletcher 31 marital status unclear, could be married or widow
Mary A Fletcher 5
Harriet Livingstone 65

Hello MarieCeleste; Yes that is my tree on Ancestry. i'ts still In progress. I mainly use the tree here on GRU.
The Robert middle name comes from info I received from my aunt. She told me that her fathers sister had a child James Robert named after my g-grandfather James the one in question.
Also she mentioned he had left a sister back in England possibly Margaret.
I did some research on her and came up with A Margaret Livngstone, b/abt/1860 daughter of a James Livingstone.
She lived on Hunter Street which i have found out was just a stones throw from Johnson Street where James & Ellen supposedly lived.
She married a William Shearman Fletcher in 1885

Hi Gary 0- is that your Livingstone Family Tree on Ancestry?

If so, it has Ellen and James' son as James Robert Livingstone. Where did the Robert come from? (Sorry if answer buried in thread).

He also had a sister Margaret b 1860.

Gary


Your library lady was not quite correct!

There was a law, but some people did not register their babies



The law governing registration of births, marriages and deaths came into force on July 1 1837.

The registration of marriages and deaths were the responsibility of the Vicar of the church .................. he filled out the Parish Register, and made copies of the certificates immediately for the bride and groom. At intervals (usually 3 months, but could be longer), he sent copies of the certificates in the Parish Register and sent them to the Local Registry Office

The Local Registry Office entered the information into their Register Books, and at regular intervals, sent the information down to the General Register Office (GRO) in London. There the records were entered into the GRO Register Books.


Births were handled somewhat differently. The onus was put on the Registrar for the district to find out about any births, and to visit the homes to register the babies. Babies had to be registered within 6 weeks of the birth.

As you may imagine, this did not work very well ........... thousands were missed!

In the mid-1870s, the law regarding registration of births was changed ......... the onus was put on the Mother to go to the Registrar or Registry Office and register her baby's birth. She had 6 weeks after the birth to do this.

If she registered late, she was liable for a fine ......... so many women either did not register their baby OR they fudged the date of birth, so that they did appear to be registering within the time period.


Many fewer babies were missed after 1874 ................... but some babies were still not registered,


OR it could also happen that for some reason the records sent from the Local Registry Office did not get to GRO



That is why some people prefer to try the Local Registry Offices for certificates.




sylvia

I was in contact with the library a couple of years ago. the lady who did it for me did some extensive searching and found nothing there on him from 1856 to 1860. She mentioned that prior to the early 1880's there was no law to order people to register births but she said a lot of churches did keep records.
She mentioned for me to try to get the records from the All Souls Church of England, Eaton St. Liverpool where James & Ellen were married to see if they might have a record of births. But upon inquiring i was told the church had been torn down years ago. So another dead end. and as I have no direct way to go search there from here in Canada, I need all of your appreciated assistance. Thanks again ...Gary

Hi All; Now back to a bit of my initial post, James 1857 , whether he was given the surname Molyneux or Livingstone.
I still need to find a record of his birth. and if the James & Ellen on the marriage certificate are his actual parents.

Now the stickler We know they were married in 1858.
What is peculiar is they do not show up until the 1881 census
as James Livingston aged 50 labourer & Ellen aged 45 wife
They were living at 2H 10Ct. Up Milk Street in this census
[piece 3611 folio 37 page #33 ]if they are the same couple?

What is strange they are not listed on the 1861 or the 1871
census. Where I suppose if they had children, they would be listed as others in household.
I'd appreciate it if somebody might be able to find info on them somewhere between their marriage and the 1881 census.


There is another James aged 51 & Ellen aged 52 Livingstone which were born in Ireland and lived at Netherton, Station Cottage he was a Railways Pointsman. I know for fact they're not directly related. So they aren't the James & Ellen i'm looking for.
I have her maiden name somewhere in my data.

MC

That's exactly what I saw, and couldn't do



I wonder why one cannot move on to the next page??? One usually can on ancestry!

Sorry, don't have Ancestry.

but firmly believe the date on the actual certificate to be correct.
Meaning that James born Dec 1857 would have been a Molyneux as parents didn't marry until 7th March 1858.

However they may have left the registration of James until AFTER they married so that he could be officially Livingstone.

Maybe the records office at Liverpool would do a search around Dec 1857 to find the certificate with the right parents.

Can't move on to the next page on the marriage register, however the next marriage doesn't even have a year written in!

Reckon the vicar had been at the communion wine.

I'd definitely say it was due to clerical error (sorry for bad pun).

Gary



oopsie!!


Bridegroom was James, as it states in the c&p'd entry from the parish register


I just mis-typed his name when giving you the information from the actual register. I'm sorry about that.

What I posted is from the Parish Register as digitised on ancestry

The date quite clearly is 1857 written in the top left hand corner of the page



HOWEVER ............. I may have solved the problem!


The date 1857 might well be a mistake by the Vicar of the day (or maybe Verger).


I have been able to go back to the previous page .................... and two marriages are quite clearly shown as taking place in November and December 1857!

The next wedding is Ellen and James in March ............ and that just HAS to be in 1858!


I am unable to move forward to the next page to check what date is written on there


Mike* ...................... do you have access to ancestry to double check???????



I read the address as being 4 Gt (for Great) Johnson St ...... as that is a street name I remember from my days in Liverpool

However, it might well be 4 Ct (for Court), Johnson St (there should have been a comma separating court from street, although often not used)


Courts were little alleys or offshoots from the street, entered via a narrow "ginnel" or archway. The houses were tiny, usually within indoor water etc, one toilet would be shared between all houses.




sylvia

Hi Sylvia you posted
Ellen
age 23
spinster etc.
&
John
age 24
bachelor
carter
4 Ct. Johnson Street etc.
Is the Jonn right or is it supposed to have been James
If it is John it isn't the right Ellen??
Also I purchased a copy of their marriage from the Central Library in liverpool. and it states March 7 1858 All Souls church
Liverpool and the address is 4 Ct. Johnsoston/Johnson St.