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Hi, James and Lillian were my Grandparents, married they went missing after the birth of their son Dennis Alexander Spencer born Newcastle upon Tyne 1920. Their home address was Leyton Essex. What happened to them is a mistery. All I am after is a confirmed link to them - all I have to go on is my fathers birth Cert. Births 1920 (7th July)
Spencer Dennis A -Brown - Newcastle T. 10b 197
Any help or direction gratefully recieved.

Thanks
Paul

The marriage cert will give you their ages which will help in searching for their deaths

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Jun 1919 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brown Lily - Spencer- Leeds 9b 855
Spencer James - Brown - Leeds 9b 855

Just to clarify.... Dennis was Dennis A

Births Sep 1920
Spencer Dennis A -Brown - Newcastle T. 10b 197

Looked at that marriage but it does not show middle names

ASked the question on duplicate as to where did they marry and how old were they.

Have flagged the other as a duplicate on Find Living
Relatives

Deleted duplicate.

I have the Lilly Brown /James Spencer marriage cert but unable to cross reference as there is no middle name or way of confirming this link

What were their ages on the marriage cert and names of fathers please ?

Ok
James Spencer age 40 years, Fathers name Harry Spencer.
Lily Brown age 32 years fathers name John Brown.

James profession on marriage cert is able seaman. My fathers birth cert shows his father james as ex army of colchester now music hall artist!

Possibly James in 1881
Was hoping he would have a middle initial.

Does his father;s occupation tie in ?


Household: 1881

Harry SPENCER Head M Male 23 Leeds, York, England Shunter On The Railway (Ptsm)
Matilda SPENCER Wife M Female 25 Northfleet Parish Of, Kent, England
George H. JOHNSON Son Male 6 Leeds, York, England Scholar
Amy SPENCER Dau Female 4 Leeds, York, England Scholar
James SPENCER Son Male 2 Leeds, York, England
Florence SPENCER Dau Female 4 m Leeds, York, England

:
Dwelling 29 Catherine St
Census Place Leeds, York, England

If the couple became music hall artists they may have other stage names after 1920

Do any of the names from 1881 appear as winesses on the marriage cert ?

Harry Spencer's occupation on marriage cert is Forman Shunter.

The Witnesses are James (lenny or kenny)Brown and Edna Townsley.
This appears a close match but I am unable to confirm a link
James profession is not a good match with that on the birth cert of the son (Dennis)
None of the names appaer on the marriage cert.

This looks like James with his sister as boarders. Alice Maud Mary is also a witnness on James first marriage in 1904. Alice also on 1891 census with James.

1901 England Census
about James Spencer Name: James Spencer
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Male
Where born: Leeds, Yorkshire, England

Civil parish: Leeds
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England


Registration district: Leeds
Sub-registration district: West Leeds
ED, institution, or vessel: 93
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 8
Piece: 4241
Folio: 58
Page Number: 3
Household Members: Name Age
William Stainthorpe 31
Mary Ann Stainthorpe 30
Fred Stainthorpe 5
Harold Stainthorpe 4
Sidney Stainthorpe 3
Mary Pearson 20
James Spencer 22
Alice Maude Mary Spencer 18

1891 England Census
about James Spencer Name: James Spencer
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Harry Spencer
Mother's name: Matilda Spencer
Gender: Male
Where born: Leeds, Yorkshire, England

Civil parish: Leeds
Ecclesiastical parish: St Edmunds
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England


Registration district: Leeds
Sub-registration district: South East Leeds
ED, institution, or vessel: 26
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3684
Folio: 163
Page Number: 18
Household Members: Name Age
Harry Spencer 33
Matilda Spencer 35
George H Spencer 16
Lavinia Spencer 14
James Spencer 12
Alice Spencer 8
Margaret Spencer 6
Charles Spencer 1

West Yorkshire, England, Marriages and Banns, 1813-1922
about James Spencer Name: James Spencer
Birth Year: abt 1879
Age: 25
Marriage or Bann Date: 30 Jul 1904
Parish: Leeds, St Simon
Father's Name: Harry Spencer
Spouse's Name: Isabel Goodall
Spouse's Father's Name: Ralph Goodall

EDIT put up the wrong marriage previously



Vera

Thank you Vara,

This James Spencer was a close match so I sent off/recieved the marriage cert. I still cant see any evidence to show a confirmed link. In fact James's occupation on marriage cert says able seaman. My fathers birth cert shows it as ex army of colchester now music hall artist. Its a shame the middle names missing off the marriage cert this could have been conclusive one way or the other.

Paul

I think this might be the Lily who married in 1919:

1911 census transcription details for: 29 Evanston Row Kirkstall Road Leeds
RG14PN27056 RG78PN1549 RD500 SD4 ED3 SN166

Reg. District: Leeds Sub District: Kirkstall
BROWN, John Head Widower M 65 1846 Dyers Lab Bradford
BROWN, Tom Son Single M 27 1884 Rivetter Leeds
>>>BROWN, Lily Daughter Single F 24 1887 Folder In Printing Leeds
TOWNSLEY, Sam Son In Law Married M 38 1873 Dyers Lab Leeds
TOWNSLEY, S Ann Daughter Married
13 years F 40 1871 Leeds
>>>TOWNSLEY, Edna Daughter Single F 11 1900 School Leeds
TOWNSLEY, Lily Daughter Single F 5 1906 School Leeds
TOWNSLEY, Minnie Daughter Single F 3 1908 Leeds
TOWNSLEY, Ida Daughter Single F 0 (9 MONTHS) 1911 Leeds



I see why you're a little hesitant to claim them as the parents of Dennis!

Maureen

Thanks Maureen,

Yes-I think this is the Lily who married in 1919. Edna Townley listed also appears on James's & Lilly's Marriage cert.
However the occupations dont match my fathers birth cert and without matching middle names I have insufficiant evidence to accept the marriage cert as my Grandparents.

I thought maybe if I could find out when/how they died this would explain why they disappeard!

Regards
Paul

Was Dennis's birth registered by his mother/father - or someone else?

Hi,

Dennis Was born on 7th July 1920 Newcastle upon Tyne.
His birth was registered (in Newcastle)by his mother Lillian Rose Spencer 16th July 1920. Although residence states Grassmere, Colchester Road, Leyton, Essex.


Regards
Paul.

Paul, maybe Lillian Rose wasn't sure which branch of the forces he had been in.

James Spencer and first wife in 1911:

SPENCER, James Head Married M 32 1879 Engine Man Leeds Yorkshire VIEW
SPENCER, Isabel Wife Married
6 years F 28 1883 Dressing Rooms Manageress Pontefract Yorkshire VIEW
SPENCER, James Son Single M 6 1905 Leeds Yorkshire VIEW
SPENCER, Eleanor Daughter Single F 4 1907 Leeds Yorkshire VIEW

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
26924 Reference:
RG14PN26924 RG78PN1546 RD500 SD1 ED9 SN116

Registration District:
Leeds Sub District:
South East Leeds Enumeration District:
9 Parish:
Leeds

Address:
30 and 31-32 St Anns Square Shannon ST County:
Yorkshire (West riding)

Interesting occupation of Isabel - in a music hall?

Thank you Meg,

I think Lillian would have known the armed forces branch because the 1914-18 war had just finished, it may have been listed on the marriage Cert under rank or profession. If the 1919 marriage cert I have is theirs its odd there son's birth cert just a year later states occupation as Music hall artist, ex army of colchester.(this appears quite specific to mention both)

I agree the first wifes occupation in Music hall is tantilising but inconlusive link, if only the middle names were available.

Is the above RG link from the Census?

Regards
paul

Can anyone recommend best place to search post 1920 deaths?

Thanks
Paul

You would think so, Paul, but my imagination is thinking that maybe James didn't want Lillian to know about some misdemeanour he was involved with in the army, so said he was a seaman, and then an ex-army buddy or a sibling turned up and the truth was out. Okay, probably rubbish.

Yes, it's the census reference.

Freebmd deaths are only complete up to about 1950, with very few yet added after 1960. Alternatives are Ancestry and Find My Past. I don't know what's available on here. There are plenty of likely deaths of a James and Lily Spencer, wouldn't know where to start.

As your father knew nothing about his parents I wonder if you should see if you can trace the children from the first marriage of James to find living relatives who might recall that their grandfather ran off to the music hall?

I had a quick look at Eleanor Spencer - she could have married John Pickles in Bradford in 1930, there is a likely child from this marriage born Leeds and a possible marriage for her. I will PM the details. EDIT probably not right, see next posting. From then it would be a case of locating people on electoral rolls or phone books and contacting them.

It might also be worth getting the marriage certificate of Eleanor Spencer to see what occupation she gives to her father.

There is a death of Isabel Spencer in 1959 in Folkestone, exactly the right age - but I haven't yet seen any connection with Folkestone that might suggest it is her. EDIT, see next.