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Morning Mike, in answer to your question, The family [all long gone now], always insisted that she was the only one...... However, I did come across a "Winifred Mary Walsh, born June 1895 in Wigan", one year earlier than Bertha. ironically, she too ended up in an Institution.
Looking through some of my 'notes', I have Edward Walsh born Sept 1873 and Elizabeth Marsh born June 1873, with Edward death in 1898.
I think my best bet is to try and find the census 1891 and see just who was living in 8 Ellesmere Street, Leigh at that time.... If it turns out to be WELCH then all the certificates of Bertha are wrong, eg; Birth, Marriage, Death, 1911 census for the Institution in 'Boro, seeing that they were all named WALSH.
I feel as tho' I am getting you 'bogged down' Mike with all this 'doubt'.
Cheers, John.

It's not unusual to have the right certificate in the wrong name.
I searched for years for Swales only to find the correct cert which had been transcribed as Waters ( not even close).

I must admit though, I did wonder at the outset why a child born in Leigh Lancashire would end up in an institutuion in Middlesborough.
But stranger things have happened.

There's always the possibility that Elizabeth never married, but simply assumed Edward's name

Where did you get Edward and Elizabeth's DOB from ?
Is this the death you think is Edward aged 23 ?

Deaths Mar 1898
Walsh Edward 23 - Wigan 8c 23

which would make his DOB 1875 .... possibly this one ...


Births Sep 1875
Walsh Edward - Leigh 8c 253

Struggling to find him in 1881 though !

-------------------

Silly question but ...As this is your mother, I assume you knew her exact date of birth before you found the certificate..... or does it differ from what you thought ?
With her marrying as Bertha E and the birth cert you found is just Bertha, I'm just wondering if the other info matches exactly.
.

Hi Mike,
[1].. Apparently there were no Institutions for children in Lancashire area and Bertha ended up in Middlesbrough. THIS IS ANOTHER PROBLEM, HER NEAREST RELATIVE WAS STATED AS THE NSPCC INSPECTOR....
which gives the impression there were possibly no parents around..
As for the DOB of Edward and Elizabeth that was just 'looking around'
on my part and just found these two..
Bertha on her marriage certificate had listed herself as Bertha Elizabeth, her date of berth on that cert was just 1895 which was the same year as my fathers which was assumed that she didn't know her real DOB.
But she was definitely in a Institution When she came out, she was given a job as Nursery Maid to a Major Turnton at Kildale Hall looking after two boys..[One later became a Lord under the Ted Heath Government.
My father died when I was nine and my mother died when I was 16. No time for making a Family Tree. When I did start all the older members of the family had also 'gone'...As for my Tree [Nunn] just about finished, my wifes Tree [Colley] just about finished.... My mothers Tree - A COMPLETE NIGHTMARE, like that song "I Just Can't Get Started"............ John

Long shot so bear with me .....


Is this your mother's death ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Jun 1951
NUNN Bertha - 71 - Bury St. E. 4b 851


Reason I ask .... I keep looking at this one ....


Births Jun 1881 -
MARSH Bertha - Leigh 8c 284


Did your mum name Edward Walsh as her father on her marriage certificate ?

Mike,
Mother died Thursday 11th June 1953, Shildon, co Durham....
On her marriage cert and her death cert, she was down as Bertha Elizabeth, which somehow I have my doubts as to the Elizabeth, as her birth cert indicates just Bertha [and the Institution]....I took it for granted that she had just added her mother's name to hers just for the 'fun' of it.

On her marriage certificate she stated NOK as Edward Walsh [Deceased].
that was in 1919, so it does appear that her father had died before her entering the Institution..
Not much to go on Mike I'm afraid....

Just to add one detail. I don't think the 1895 Winifred is the same on as the 1911 one:

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/cgi/birthind.cgi?county=lancashire
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1895
WALSH Winifred Mary Wigan Wigan & Leigh GORDON

Deaths Sep 1895
Walsh Winifred Mary 0 Wigan 8c 27

........
The 1911 one says she was born in Hull,but I can't find her in 1901 and I don't think she is the Winifred Mary E born in 1893 in Hull.


Sorry not to have helped more!

Maureen

PS-Did you ever state what Edward's occupation was on the birth cert?

Nice to have you "onboard" Maureen, and thanks for your help....
I have Edward down as a 'Bricklayers Labourer", but not 100% certain.
Best wishes... John

Maureen. just to add to my last .... The Bricklayers Labourer was something I happened to come across.... On the birth cert, it was - "Unknown"..... John

"I'M LOST, I'M LIKE A KING WITHOUT A THRONE, I'M LOST"......
That song was recored by Nat King Cole - I only wish that EDWARD WALSH and ELIZABETH MARSH had recorded, I may have found it easier to find them...
They [or their histories] MUST be out there somewhere ...... All the info as I know it is on this thread - need a miracle or a few very good Sherlock Holmes' to put the puzzle in order.....
John

Just a thought,John,,,if you really think that the 1911 Bertha is yours,have you tried contacting Teesside Archives? I have no idea how costly a search would be (if it can be done at all!).


http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Middlesbrough/

"By 1913, one of the cottage homes was being used as a receiving home, presumably for children destined for the union's then fifteen scattered homes then in operation — three at 400-404 Linthorpe Road, three at 91-95 Grange Road West, two at 76-78 Grange Road East, one at Thornaby, and six at Broomland's Cottages on Cambridge Road."
(Bertha is at 76 Grange Road East)

Records
Teesside Archives, Exchange House, 6 Marton Road, Middlesbrough TS1 1DB. Holdings: Guardians' minute books (1875-1930); Admission and discharge records (1894-1930).
http://teessidearchives.middlesbrough.gov.uk/calmview/

Good luck!

Maureen

MANY THANKS Maureen, that's worth a try..... Regards. John :-)

MANY THANKS Maureen, that's worth a try..... Regards. John :-)

Looking for the occupants in the 1891 census for LEIGH in Lancashire, address:-
8 Ellesmere Street, [Could be Tyldesley] , Leigh.
Can anyone please do me a search on the 1891 census.

Looking for the name of WALSH....
Many thanks... John :-(

Add to my last - Or MARSH

John :-(

I tried this the other day and got nowhere. Just for elimination:

1891 census transcription details for: 8, Ellesmere Street, Tyldesley

RG number: RG12 Piece: 3091 Folio: 109 Page: 10

Reg. District: Leigh Sub District: Atherton
Parish: Tyldesley Enum. District: 14
Ecclesiastical District: St Georges City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 8, Ellesmere Street, Tyldesley County: Lancashire


CLEMENSON, Robert Head Married M 28 1863 Wood Sawyer
Lancashire
CLEMENSON, Elizabeth Wife Married F 28 1863
England
CLEMENSON, Joseph Son M 6 1885
Lancashire
CLEMENSON, Robert Son M 3 1888
Lancashire
CLEMENSON, Mary Daughter F 7 1884
Lancashire
CLEMENSON, Isabella Daughter F 1 1890
Lancashire

(I think they show up as Clementson on FreeBMD). Right. They're at 8 Ellesmere in 1901 as well (as Clementson).

In 1901 there seems to be an uninhabited 8 Ellesmere Street in Leigh (Lilford area????) but I have no clue where to find it in 1891.

Sorry.

Maureen

Maureen, you're a 'Gem'.. thanks for that info..
I am assuming that Edward Died in 1898 in Leigh [possibly age 23]..
Bertha was placed in an Institution in 1900 {so she won't show up on normal census]..
That leaves the mother Elizabeth.. If Bertha was in a 'Home' then her mother must have been in a pretty bad state....
This could be the reason why 8 Ellesmere Street in Leigh [Lilford] was uninhabited.... Could be.....
Many thanks Maureen.
John. :-)

Tsk. I think the 1891 Pennington(the one our Andy on your other thread pointed out as uninhabited) and the Lilford one are the same.

Not at all familiar with the area!!!!!!!!
Good luck with Teesside!
Maureen

Many thanks Maureen.
I think I'll need that luck.
Take care.
John

What do the Experts think of this idea regarding all the above ?????
Seeing that everything seems to have happened in LEIGH [Wigan area]. If I gathered all the info which I have and contacted the WIGAN & LEIGH Register Office at Wigan, do you think they may be able to help ?.
Another question - Did a/or any Institutions exist in the Lancashire area around 1899 - 1901

Regards. John

There was the workhouse

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Wigan/