Find Ancestors

Yes, that's about the size of things, lol...

(that ol' thing, where something usually turns up that proves it!)

Chris :)

Chris...we are so near!!!

July 1901 Joseph agrees maintenance to Martha in return for custody of Bertie. She goes to stay with Harriet and meets up with William who is lodging with his brother and his wife.

She and William "get together" ...she conceives Winifred...they move to Witham Street Newport (funny I have Hyde and Hunt ancestors there already) and then to Christchurch before moving to Uskside. Winifred is not registered (guess she never needed a passport)...

And then Joseph catches up with her....

I'll never prove it..no birth.....

But I'll bet I am right!! :-)

No Chris.. I think it's her in all three and the W Stoddart is an error. First one he pays her maintenance but gets custody of Bertie. Then other two she's cohabiting with William Sargeant and husband seeks to stop paying. William was from Christchurch.

Clincher is, sister Harriet , married to william's brother, Robert , lived in tin works row, llanharan (3 miles from Pontyclun)

Only missing thing is that by then Winifred had been born....would that have been mentioned?

Maybe a visit to the library to check electoral rolls for Witham Street...

Jude

ooh!, something here!...

http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3479774/3479777/42/

(18/7/1901)


http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4137025/4137027/27/

(that's not her is it?, Maintenance Order)


http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3828105/3828112/72/

(no, seems he was W Stoddart)

So she still didn't come before court (25 May)...lots of adverts..loving this one "staid person"...widow not objected to :-)

Jude

not seeing!...

Chris :)

http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3813997/3814004/52/

(above May 25th, but seems same as other)

(some adverts for staff from her Jan. 1901)

Thanks Chris...quite a girl it seems!

Is there anything for 23 May 1901 (they issued a warrant for her to appear before the court a week later)?

Datewise, getting close to the time that she must have become pregnant with Winifred, if I am correct (and I am as sure as I can be that I am).

Jude

(lol, yes, he went back!, see below)

Chris :)

http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3478249/3478252/63/

Well I am no nearer finding a birth for Winifred - I think they really must have not registered her.

Did find something new today though...while looking for definitive timelines...I have Martha on 31 March 1901 (census) at the Rickards Arms with husband Joseph Cornelius.

Then next I have is 14 September 1908 at 8 Usk Side (Hilda's birth) the place she would live in until her death.

But in November 1897 she was in court for being drunk. The article says "her husband afterwards came into the room saying that he could not live with her owing to her intemperate habits" and then "Superintendent Coles informed the Bench that the husband had obtained a separation order and was now living in England".

But he obviously came back as they were there together in 1901

Well I finally made it back to (the revamped) library. And I managed to find William from 1935 to 1946. He disappears in 1947, the year of his death.

But I can't find him from 1927, address The Hut, Gasworks, Caerleon until 1935. I know he wasn't at this last address because I have found the address minus him. But neither can I find the 1935 onwards address of The Hut, Fiddlers Hall, St Julian's Wood in the intervening time due to boundary changes.

But it's progress of a sorts.It all still points to William and Martha being the parents of both Winifred and Hilda, to them being a couple until 1925 and then some estrangement happening which lasted until her death in 1936. Although, as my MIL knew him, she was born in 1933, there must have been contact with him.

Still searching for a birth to match Winifred's of 08 August 1902....but reconciled to it being a fruitless task :-)

Jude

Birth certificate came...it's him although the year, as I suspected, was 1871 but 10th November it is!

Jude

well done for perseverance --- some of the indexing in the 1939 index
leaves some thing to be desired -- I eventually found one family I wanted to
find by looking for the Daughters married name and found them as
Runway's instead of Rumsey's

hope you have a bit more luck in Electoral rolls

Mavis

Well the 1939 register has cleared a few cobwebs.....

Firslt I searched for Wilfred Henry and his wife. And I found them at 32 Backhall Street; his occupation "haycutter"! :-)

So I know they lived in the cottages and she switched from Mary Winifred to Winifred Mary and, I guess it's not a huge step for Wilfred to be called "Bill".

So then I searched for William Sargent....to no avail...so tried just William in Newport CB and I found him mistranscribed as Sargert. He gave his date of birth as 10 November 1869. The birth registration fits with his baptism as 1871 (there doesn't appear to be one in 1869 that fits). So I think I am going to get his birth certificate to be sure. His address was The Hut, St Julian's Wood....and I am sure I found him in the electoral rolls once at the St Julian's Hotel and the wood is in walking distance. Must visit the library and search again soon :-)

Jude

Well even though I had already deduced it ...I spent a few pounds on the 1939 register and it confirms Winifred's birth of 08 August 1902

So can only deduce from everything that she was not registered. I am convinced that she was the natural daughter of Martha and that "Ellis" was a smokescreen. I am further convinced that William was her father (especially given the electoral roll prior to her marriage) and that she knew it. But why she didn't name him on the marriage certificate I do not understand.

Jude

So a visit to the library today (not for this thread) gave me a few pointers....

So...The Local Government Act 1894 (56 & 57 Vict. c. 73) was an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom that reformed local government in England and Wales outside the County of London. One of the principal effects of the act was to entitle women who owned property to vote in local elections, become poor law guardians, and act on school boards.

I knew Martha in 1901 was at the Rickards Arms in Ystradfogwg with her husband Joseph. And that by 1911, she was in Caerleon, at 8 Uskside, and Joseph was nowhere to be seen. In the census she declared herself as "married".

I found her trawling the electoral rolls from 1903 to 1918. In 1907, she is on the roll at 13 Mill Street with a qualification of Occupation. And then from 1909 to 1912 she is at 8 Uskside. The relevant pages for Caerleon in 1915 are missing.

So, for her to be on the electoral roll in 1907, she must have been registered as the owner of the property?

Anyway, it fits with her being in Caerleon for the birth of Hilda Marjorie and not necessarily for the (presumed birth) of Winifred. I will never prove it but I think that late 1901/early 1902, pregnant with Winifred she left Joseph to give birth. And then at some point moved to Caerleon between September 1902 and 1907 when I first find her on the electoral roll. I also suspect that the status of married on the 1911 census was because she was openly living with William Sargent by then and it was a case of "saving face" ...And what happened to them in 1928 that caused their apparent split? I still can't help thinking that Wilfred/William and Winifred Mary are the key! But who knows? All conjecture!!!

If the 1921 census is ever released it will hopefully answer a few questions about Martha and William and, in my other thread, Charles and Eva ...:-) Let's hope anyway!

Jude

So...when hubby goes back to work on Monday night I am going to have one last shot at this!

So I lied - I have played and played and searched and searched all weekend....and now I have given up TOTALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Needle in haystack just does not come near! Thanks everyone for your help and support in getting as far as I did :-)

Jude

Yes Chris I am not even convinced that "Barry" given on the 1911 census is true (who knows with the lovely Martha Jane)?!

My guess is that she was not adopted; that she was Martha's natural daughter, probably with William Sargent. And that sometime between the 1901 census and August 1902 she left Joseph to have the baby - maybe that's where Barry might come in.

I did exactly the same search....

And as for surname

:-S :-S :-S

Jude

(phew Jude, lol, just doing below, quite a few, perhaps trying by District, might narrow things a bit!)

Births First name(s): win*flo* Start date: Sep 1902
End date: Dec 1902

lol, that's not helpful is it!...

Chris :)

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

(from above)

edits (that witness M Doherty at 1930 Marriage, you posted earlier, no help, just observation!, perhaps below)

Marriages Sep 1928 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------------------
Doherty Michael P Olsen Newport M 11a 579
Olsen Mary E Doherty Newport M. 11a 579
Hellgren John H Johnson Newport M 11a 579
Johnson Margaret Hellgren Newport M 11a 579


1911 (Find My Past)
Terence Doherty Head Married Male 48 1863 Glamorgan Merthyr General Labourer
Annie Doherty Wife Married Female 38 1873 Ireland Waterford -
Michael Doherty Son Single Male 7 1904 Newport Mon -
Johanna Doherty Daughter Single Female 3 1908 Newport Mon -
Felix Doherty Son - Male 5 1906 Newport Mon -
Annie Doherty Daughter - Female 1 1910 Newport Mon -
Felix Doherty Brother Single Male 46 1865 Glamorgan Merthyr Shipwright
Address 28 St Michael Street
Parish Newport


1911 (Find My Past)
Albert Olsen Head Married Male 26 1885 Newport Mon Dock Labourer
Mary Olsen Wife Married Female 26 1885 Newport Mon -
Mary Elizabeth Olsen Daughter - Female 0 1911 Newport Mon
Address 15 Potter Street
Parish Newport

OK I know from her marriage certificate (if she told the truth) that she was born between September 7th 1901 and September 6th 1902

And today my MIL confirmed she didn't know the year but her birthday was 8th August (same as my FIL)

So she must have been born 08 August 1902

Get searching folks to see if we can crack this one!!

Jude

(been on receiving end of skewed memories a time or two here, lol, those family stories!)

Chris :)

(thought our posting times were odd!, just saw below, 'Announcements Board', lol, no comment!)


Genes Advisor 30 Jan 2015 17:28

Please be advised that we are aware of an issue with our clock that appears to be running in a timezone all of its' own at the moment !

We are looking into this and hope to have it fixed as soon as possible.