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Well birth certificate arrived today.....if there could be a more confusing bigger can of worms I don't know where!!!!!

So Hilda Marjorie Sargent was born 14 September 1908 at 8, Uskside Caerleon (Martha's address at the time - and the address of the 1911 census).

The mother is named as Sarah Sargent formerly Mogford and the father as William Sargent

So Martha did have a sister Sarah (Ellen) who was born 1854. So that would tie in with Hilda being Martha's niece...but I can't find a marriage for William and Sarah and he stated in 1911 he was single.

Sarah Ellen - who would have been 54 in 1908 - was married to Charles George White, a butler, and they had two sons William Walter (1881) and George Charles (1884) (later a Major). In 1891 they are in Battersea but I can't find them in 1901. And I have only found George Charles - in Canada- in 1911.

So while I am looking all extra eyes welcome! This is a sideline to the main question - who were the birth parents of Winifred - but I can't help thinking they are connected.

Jude

Just to nudge up....I think that as there have been views and no posts that you are all as stumped as me :-)

I have searched and searched and searched for any trace of them in 1901 or 1911. Charles George died before 1911 so not expecting to find him!!

I have a day off Friday so I might spend an hour in the library again....the problem with Winifred is that I am not sure she would show on electoral rolls until 1928 but I have not found Martha et all at any time (I am going to have to work out where in Caerleon the house was).

I don't understand why she didn't name a father on her wedding certificate but she didn't.

Jude

I have a very suspicious mind!

Hilda was born in 1908, registered as the child of Sarah Sargent formerly Mogford and the father as William Sargent


BUT Sarah was then 54, and had apparently had no children other than William Walter (1881) and George Charles (1884)


That is a) a long break between children, and b) a very elderly mother



I'm wondering whether Hilda could in fact have been MARTHA's child after a liaison with William Sargent ........ and registered as Sarah's


this was not that uncommon in those days ................. mothers or married sisters were known to have registered illegitimate children of young daughters / sisters as their own.


There would then be nothing too suspicious in Martha taking care of her "niece".




How to prove it is the question, of course!

Sylvia - my thoughts entirely.....and Joseph being away a lot as well.....he did die in Caerleon but whether thy were "together" or not I don't know. ....and was Martha also Winifred's mother? :-S

hmmmmmmmmmmm


we do have suspicious minds :-D

Like Elvis :-)

Will update after my visit to the library!!!!!

Jude

will be waiting to hear more :-)

Well a reasonably successful visit to the library this morning :-) Obviously it's not possible to really scrutinise the years I want to between 1900 and 1911 because of the voting restrictions in those days.

So I looked at the electoral rolls annually from 1922 for 8 Uskside

From 1922 to 1925 Martha Jane Stoddart and William Sargeant were listed

Then in 1926 it is only Martha. Over the following years Martha is constant but she seems to have a succession of men with her so maybe she took in lodgers? These included John Evans, Lemuel Carver, Jonathan Jones Davies, George Mosely Henry Jenklns Edward Daley Thomas Jenkins and Jack Kennedy.

Between 1931 and 1933 she is also joined by John Mead and wife Winifred Mead. Winifred also featured in 1929 (before her marriage) as Winifred Stoddart.

Martha died in Q3 1936 and in 1937 Robert James and Hilda Marjorie Dando are living at 8 Uskside. It disappears from 1937 so don't know if it was knocked down or renamed but I couldn't find the Dandos.

So Joseph never appears to have lived with Martha. I have now sent for both his and Martha's death certificates to see if they bring anything to light. Joseph died in Caerleon so at the very least I might be able to trace him as long as he moved to Caerleon before WW2.

I still haven't found Sarah Ellen White in 1901 or 1911. Or her husband or younger son William Walter. I did find William Walter's marriage to Alice Carter in Hampstead in 1905 (on London Marriages) but I can't find he or Alice in 1911.

But I am minded to agree that possibly Martha was really Hilda's mother. Which then makes me wonder about Winifred as well. Hilda being at 8 Uskside in 1937 makes me wonder if she inherited the house.

So where did William disappear to? I have a death for him in 1947 in Newport so have sent for that as well

Jude

I have just sent for this birth certificate

Births Sep 1903 (>99%)
Perrett Winifred Florence M Newport, M. 11a 294 Scan available - click to view

Martha's mother's name was Maria Perrett

This may be the biggest red herring ever (I have found a Winifred Florence Mary in 1911 census) but I have to rule it out

Jude

found Charles George White 1911 in Harlow Essex

Nr Sheering,Hall Lodge, Harlow, Essex

Alice Martha White 30y mar. born Pirton Hertfordshire.
Walter Alan White 5y --------- " --------" ---------" --------
Leonard Frank White 2y ----- " ----- Sheering Essex
Charles George White 57y father wd Late butler born London Middlesex.
Alice May Robinson 19y Visitor ------- born Willesden midd.
Daisy Florence Robinson 17y visitor --- " -- Sheering Essex

Mavis

Mavis thanks. That means the 1909 death for Charles is wrong. I'll have a look tonight when I am back at home

Is this George C White 1901 ????


:
George White
[George C? White]

Age:
18

Estimated Birth Year:
abt 1883

Relation to Head:
Servant

Gender:
Male

Birth Place:
Frosterley, Gloucestershire, England

Civil Parish:
St George Hanover Square

Ecclesiastical parish:
Christchurch

Town:
London

County/Island:
London

Registration district:
St George Hanover Square

Sub-registration district:
Mayfair and Knightsbridge


Piece:
82

Folio:
28

Page Number:
47

Household schedule number:
240


Henry St George Foley 34
Mildred C Foley 5
Gerald H Foley 2
George Hartwell 65
Katherine St Clair 50
Margaret Meredith 55
Minnie Wiedman 29
Eliz Sampson 19
Eliz Murph 16
Jessie Bloomfield 28
>>>>>>>>> George White 18
Annie Thurgood 21


Mavis

if Charles George White had a brother Walter then this him 1901
already a Wdr.


Charles G White

Age:
47

Estimated Birth Year:
abt 1854

Relation to Head:
Brother

Gender:
Male

Birth Place:
Marylebone, London, England

Civil Parish:
Fulham

Ecclesiastical parish:
St John


Registration district:
Fulham

Sub-registration district:
North East Fulham


Piece:
60

Folio:
76

Page Number:
5

Household schedule number:
31

Household Member

Walter R White 45
Elizabeth White 45
Charles White 12
Ethel White 9
Arthur B White 4
Emily C White 3
>>> Charles G White 47 no occupation

Mavis

Mavis - yes that's George C in 1901 (or at least it is the one I had in for him). Shortly afterwards he emigrates to Canada.

I'll have a look at that 1901 for Charles George later. Seems promising....and no Sarah as I did indeed suspect.

Jude

So there is a death for Sarah Ellen in Chelsea in 1893..have sent for it. If it IS her... then William has lied BIG TIME!!!!!

Such intrigue :-)

Jude

can hardly wait to hear :-)

Births Sep 1857 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------------
White Walter Robert Marylebone 1a 348


Marriages Mar 1888 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------------------
HOPSON Henry Leonard Marylebone 1a 851
Lake Lucy Marylebone 1a 851
WHITE Walter Robert Marylebone 1a 851

ELIZABETH LINNELL (missing, taken from FMP)


1861 (Find My Past)
George White Head Married Male 32 1829 Watchmaker And Jeweller Fleet, Lincolnshire, England
Matilda White Wife Married Female 24 1837 - Marylebone, Middlesex, England
Charles Geo White Son Unmarried Male 5 1856 - Marylebone, Middlesex, England
Walter Robt White Son Unmarried Male 3 1858 - Marylebone, Middlesex, England
Louisa H M White Daughter - Female 1 1860 - Marylebone, Middlesex, England
Catherine Harkie Servant Unmarried Female 14 1847 House Servant Edenham, Lincolnshire, England


(bit of background for Brothers)

Chris :)


(those Sons of Charles)

WHITE George Charles WHITE MOGFORD 1884 Gloucester Gloucester, Frampton 14 96

WHITE William Walter WHITE MOGFORD 1881 Gloucester Gloucester, Frampton 13 153

http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/bmd/MainMenu.aspx

Winifred Florence Mary Perrett looks to be with parents in 1911
Sidney Robert and Florence Perrett.

Her marriage Newport 1923 to Charles G Richards

Maryb.

Yes Mary I had found both of these. But I would never forgive myself if I didn't rule it out for the sake of £9.25.....

I am more and more minded that somehow Winifred Florence Ellis was not registered. And more and more minded that Martha told a few porkies :-) Hopefully the four death certificates I have sent for might close a few doors although they may well open a few more!

Chris thanks for the background info on the Whites - most helpful

Jude

(nothing helpful Winifred/Sarah wise, but noticed below Baptism, who marries Hilda Marjorie Sargent, then a few more bits n' pieces!)

Chris :)


DANDO ROBERT JAMES BLADON 1907 Christchurch, Monmouthshire, Wales

(his Parents)

Marriages Jun 1900 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Dando Frederick Percy Newport, M. 11a 421
Sargeant Margaret Mina Newport, M. 11a 421


Births Jun 1874 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------------------
Sargent Margaret Miner Newport, M. 11a 196

(sister of William on 1911 with Martha, on 1881 posted earlier)


Deaths Jun 1968 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------------------
DANDO ROBERT J B 61 NEWPORT 8C 196


Deaths Dec 1971 (31%)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
DANDO Hilda Marjorie 14 Se 1808 Caerleon 8c 393

(above has info. suggestion Birth 1908)


Deaths Mar 1963 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------------------
DANDO FREDERICK P 87 NEWPORT 8C 267


Deaths Dec 1938 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------------
DANDO Margaret M 64 Caerleon 11a 250



Deaths Dec 1891 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------------
SEARGEANT Virtue 53 Newport M 11a 153


Deaths Mar 1917 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------------
Sargeant George 89 Newport M. 11a 251


(saw below, if you don't have)

Baptism
County Monmouthshire
Place Llanfrechfa
Church Parish Church
RegisterNumber
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 07 May 1854
Forename Sarah Ellen
Sex F
FatherForename William
MotherForename Maria
FatherSurname MOGFORD

Baptism
County Monmouthshire
Place Llanfrechfa
Church Parish Church
RegisterNumber
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 25 Apr 1858
Forename Tom Charles
Sex M
FatherForename William
MotherForename Maria
FatherSurname MOGFORD

Baptism
County Monmouthshire
Place Llanfrechfa
Church Parish Church
RegisterNumber
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 10 Mar 1861
Forename Julia
Sex F
FatherForename William
MotherForename Maria
FatherSurname MOGFORD

http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/Search.pl


http://welshnewspapers.llgc.org.uk/en/page/view/3431584/ART54/mogford

(Maria Death)


Lodge Avenue
37 - Dando, Frederick P.
37 - Dando, Hilda M.
37 - Dando, Robert J. B.

http://www.caerleon.net/history/1955/


Dando, Hilda M., 17, LODGE AVENUE
Dando, Patricia M., 4, LODGE AVENUE
Dando, Reginald B., 4, LODGE AVENUE

http://www.caerleon.net/history/1970/surnames/d.htm


(? Maiden Name below)

Births Mar 1932 (>99)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Dando Reginald B Stoddart Newport M 11a 263


England & Wales deaths 1837-2007 Transcription (Find My Past)

First name(s) REGINALD BLADON
Last name DANDO
Birth day 14
Birth month 1
Birth year 1932
Death quarter 3
Death year 2001
District NEWPORT (MONMOUTHSHIRE)
District number 8361C
Register number C83C
Entry number 140
Date of registration mm/yy 0701