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I have finally bitten the bullet and obtained Albert Nicholson Hartley's birth certificate....go to last message to see update



My gg-grandmother Eliza Lashford first married Henry Cox in 1858 and they had four children; Sarah (Ann?) 1859, Herbert Alfred 1862, Fanny Hariett 1866 and John James 1870. Henry died in 1871 and Eliza remarried to Richard Dunford.I don't think they married until 1877 by which time they had had Ann Elizabeth (1874-5) and Sarah (Ellen?) 1875 followed by Richard James in 1878. Richard senior died in 1879. In the 1891 census, I find Eliza (Dunford) Head, Richard Dunford and John Cox (sons) and Sarah Hartley daughter with Albert Hartley son (born 1885 Bradford Yorkshire). From the age, this is Sarah Cox. I can't find a marriage for her and in 1901 census - living in Edgbaston, she is widowed.

Can anyone help?

Jude

Hi Jude,

just for ref;

1891 England Census
about Sarah Dunford Name: Sarah Dunford
[Sarah Hartley]
Age: 31
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Daughter
Mother's name: Eliza Dunford
Gender: Female
Where born: Stourport, Worcestershire, England

Civil parish: Kings Norton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas in the Moore
Town: Balsall Heath
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Kings Norton
Sub-registration district: Kings Norton
ED, institution, or vessel: 21
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2352
Folio: 10
Page Number: 13
Household Members: Name Age
Eliza Dunford 57
Richard Dunford 13
John Dunford 21
Sarah Dunford 31 >> hartley on image
Albert Dunford 6 >. Born Bradford Yorks.

can I just sort this out to be readable first please ?


My gg-grandmother Eliza Lashford first married Henry Cox in 1858 and they had four children;

Sarah (Ann?) 1859,
Herbert Alfred 1862,
Fanny Hariett 1866
and John James 1870.

Henry died in 1871 and Eliza remarried to Richard Dunford.I don't think they married until 1877 by which time they had had

Ann Elizabeth (1874-5)
and Sarah (Ellen?) 1875
followed by Richard James in 1878.

Richard senior died in 1879.

In the 1891 census, I find

Eliza (Dunford) Head,
Richard Dunford and John Cox (sons)
and Sarah Hartley daughter
with Albert Hartley son (born 1885 Bradford Yorkshire).

From the age, this is Sarah Cox. I can't find a marriage for her and in 1901 census - living in Edgbaston, she is widowed.




so ... you are looking for a marriage of Sarah Cox to Hartley

and as you seem to have found at freebmd ... there isn't one in the right area :-)

... unless there is a mistranscription somewhere maybe


this one does seem unlikely

Marriages Mar 1885
Charlton Mary Anne Fulham 1a 294
> Cox Sarah Fulham 1a 294
? HARTLEY Charles Fulham 1a 294
Parry Walter Fulham 1a 294

and there is a Walter Parry 1862 with wife Sarah in Fulham in 1881 and eldest child aged 5 so probably that Hartley married Charlton.



it can be important to know exactly what the census says, this is the 1891


Name: Sarah Dunford
[Sarah Hartley]
( Ancestry incorrectly called her Dunford the image says Hartley for her and Albert )
Age: 31
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Daughter
Mother's name: Eliza Dunford
Gender: Female
Where born: Stourport, Worcestershire, England

Civil parish: Kings Norton

Eliza Dunford 57
Richard Dunford 13
John Dunford 21
Sarah Dunford 31
Albert Dunford 6 >>>> does it say 1 or 6 on the image ?


you are in touch with the other person who corrected both records to Hartley ?


if the census does say age 6 for Albert there are several possible births in Bradford reg dist

you might have to get more than one birth certificate but you should be able to find the one whose mother is Sarah Cox to get the father's name

do you know more about Albert, did he marry, do you know who he married and could you get that certificate to see his father's name ?

Looks like you can rule the 1885 marriage out;

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Sarah Cox Name: Sarah Cox
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862
Spouse Name: Walter Parry
Spouse Age: 23
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 02 Mar 1885
Parish: All Saints, Fulham
County: Middlesex
Borough: Hammersmith and Fulham
Father Name: Robert Cox
Spouse Father Name: Richard Parry

yes I think I ruled that marriage out :-)


is this Albert in 1901 ... so he was 1 in 1891 and not 6 ?

Name: Albert Hartley
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Relation: Nephew
Gender: Male
Where born: Yorkshire, England

Civil parish: Upper Mitton
Ecclesiastical parish: Lower Mitton St Michael
County/Island: Worcestershire

Farah Jones 52 >>> it's Isiah, probably Isaiah
Annie Jones 59
John R Jones 17
Albert E T Jones 15
Alice Louie 29
Albert Hartley 11


Sarah in 1901 for info

Name: Sarah A Hartley
Age: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Stourport, Worcestershire, England
Civil parish: Edgbaston

this is the only birth in the right place in that timeframe

Births Mar 1890
Hartley Albert Nicholson Bradford, Y.

Name: Albert N Hartley ?
Birth Date: abt 1890
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1959
Age at Death: 69
Registration district: Manchester
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 10e
Page: 136

Thanks everyone. I only started looking at this little conundrum yesterday, so in answer to the question about whether I am in touch with the other person on Ancestry...no. I had wondered if it said aged 1. The 1901 census in Lower Mitton looks hopeful - I'll have a dig today

Thanks all

Jude :-)

OK...arrived today. Albert Nicholson Hartley born 17 December 1889 and registered 27 January 1890

Mother Sarah Hartley formerly Cox

Father John Richard Hartley, Carter

So it IS my Albert in 1901.

But what of a wedding for Sarah Ann Cox and John Richard Hartley?

Or a death for him between conception and 1891 census when she was widowed?

Happy Days :-)

This looks like it might be John Richard??

HARTLEY, William Head Married M 52 1839 Police Constable
Eccleshill
Yorkshire VIEW
HARTLEY, Hannah Wife Married F 49 1842
Otley
Yorkshire VIEW
HARTLEY, Mary A Daughter Single F 28 1863 Piece Burler & Mender
Eccleshill
Yorkshire VIEW
****HARTLEY, John R Son Married M 24 1867 Carter
Eccleshill
Yorkshire VIEW
HARTLEY, Ernest Son Single M 22 1869 Dyers Labourer
Undercliffe
Yorkshire VIEW
HARTLEY, Fredk W Son M 12 1879 Scholar
Bradford
Yorkshire VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Piece:
3618 Folio:
15 Page:
24 Registration District:
Bradford

Civil Parish:
Bowling Municipal Borough:
Bradford Address:
Policemans Lodge, Bowling Park Drive, Bowling, Bradford County:
Yorkshire (West Riding)

Dea x

So this is 1891...it fits with birth certificate...where born is Park Lodge Fleur Hay Road and residence is 1 Pen (?) Street...but sub-district is Bowering. So seemingly Sarah is visiting mum in March 1891 leaving John (dad) at home...

marriage next target!

Was trying to figure out where Nicholson came into it. This looks the be John's parents' marriage:

Marriages Dec 1861
Hartley William Otley 9a 211
Nicholson Hannah Otley 9a 211

Rose

1911 185 new hey road Bowling.
William hartley police pensioner
hannah
John Richard 1867 born Eccleshill married 25 years 2 children born 2 still alive

So is it the same John Richard Hartley??

Maryb.

Yeah that looks good...spanner in the works though

In 1901 what I think is Sarah is widowed...but what's this in 1911? (Theodora is Frederick!!!!)

Name: John Richard Hartley
Age in 1911: 44
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Relation to Head: Son
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Doddshill Bfd, Yorkshire, England
Civil parish: Bradford
County/Island: Yorkshire-West Riding
Country: England
Street Address: 185 New Hey Road Bradford
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Metal Gaoler
Registration district: Bradford
Registration District Number: 498
Sub-registration district: Bowling
ED, institution, or vessel: 07
Piece: 26681
Household Members:
Name Age
William Hartley 72
Hannah Hartley 69
John Richard Hartley 44
Theodora William Hartley 32

John Richard shown as married...seems unlikely we have the wrong people...so did they split up and she starts stating "widowed"? Were they ever married?

Aaaagh ...the pleasure and the pain!!!!

Ha ha Mary we matched/crossed :-)

It has to be the same family...the address fits too...I thought it said on the birth certificate Fleur Hey Road..but it's New Hey Road...birthplace on original 1911 census is Eccleshill...oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive!!

He was married already:

Marriages Jun 1885
Fuller George Bradford, Y. 9b 298
Gibson Sarah Eleanor Bradford, Y. 9b 298
HARTLEY John Richard Bradford Y. 9b 298
WHITEHOUSE Sarah Rebecca Bradford, Y. 9b 298

Rose

As Alice or was it the Cheshire Cat said...curiouser and curiouser. The more I look the more I believe she became pregnant, was not married, gave birth, registered as "married" and then returned home to Worcestershire as newly married and then by next census was widowed. Reality ...never married never widowed...oh the shame of it!! :-)

1901 D11 > 21 Bradford east
13,Sandford road
William hartley 1839 bootmaker
hannah born otley
Frederick W hartley 22 bootmaker
No John R

1901 There is a John Richard Hartley 34 with a Clara no children,and one with a Jane with a few children.

Maryb.

Can anyone see a Sarah (Eleanor or Rebecca) Hartley with a child in 1891?

Rose

The only Sarah Hartley with a child that I find is MY Sarah


Name: Sarah Dunford
[Sarah Hartley]
( Ancestry incorrectly called her Dunford the image says Hartley for her and Albert )
Age: 31
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Daughter
Mother's name: Eliza Dunford
Gender: Female
Where born: Stourport, Worcestershire, England

Civil parish: Kings Norton

Eliza Dunford 57
Richard Dunford 13
John Dunford 21
Sarah Dunford 31
Albert Dunford 6 >>>> does it say 1 or 6 on the image ?

And Albert is 1

And for reference this is what I THINK is her in 1901

Name: Sarah A Hartley
Age: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Stourport, Worcestershire, England
Civil parish: Edgbaston
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Kings Norton
Sub-registration district: Edgbaston
ED, institution, or vessel: 22
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 212
Piece: 2816
Folio: 169
Page Number: 34
Household Members:
Name Age
Eliza Barnett 46
Norris T Foster 46
Emily Price 30
Sarah A Hartley 39

And the original says she is widowed...when of course we now know she wasn't