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Well, there is no death for Michael that I can see between 1860 and 1883 in Lancashire.

There was one in 1866 but I have discounted that one!!

Dea x

Well, It doesn't help us any but it's interesting.......

1901 Census - obviously Joseph has died, Catherine has remarried and Maria has had a 'sex change' and is now Martin !!

1901 England Census
about Kate Blackwell Name: Kate Blackwell
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: George Blackwell
Gender: Female
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Manchester
Ecclesiastical parish: Manchester St Jude
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England


Registration district: Manchester
Sub-registration district: Ancoats
ED, institution, or vessel: 24
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 89
Piece: 3743
Folio: 45
Page Number: 15
Household Members: Name Age
George Blackwell 37
Kate Blackwell 38
Mary Blackwell 4
Martin Carter 17 visitor
Ethel Carter 15 visitor


Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 3743; Folio: 45; Page: 15.

..................


Marriage

Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
BLACKWELL George BURNS Catherine Manchester Register Office or Registrar Attended Manchester MCR_RM/149/43
BLACKWELL George CARTER Catherine Manchester Register Office or Registrar Attended Manchester MCR_RM/149/43
BURNS Catherine BLACKWELL George Manchester Register Office or Registrar Attended Manchester MCR_RM/149/43
CARTER Catherine BLACKWELL George Manchester Register Office or Registrar Attended Manchester MCR_RM/149/43



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Mar 1901
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BLACKWELL George Manchester 8d 312
Carter Catherine Manchester 8d 312
Drayton Sarah Ann Manchester 8d 312
Shapley Robert Edward Manchester 8d 312

.................

Will be back later.

Dea x

that 1861 census you have

this looks like the same family in 1881 but somehow it does not look right for Joseph

Household:

Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
Mary CASSAM Head M Female 56 Hulme Manchester, Lancashire, England Ship Stewards Wife
Henrietta CARTER Daur U Female 25
Joseph CARTER Son U Male 19 C On M Manchester, Lancashire, England Warehouseman
Laura Anabella CARTER Grandaur Female 6 C On M Manchester, Lancashire, England Scholar
Emila Maud CARTER Grandaur Female 4 C On M Manchester, Lancashire, England Scholar

Source Information:
Dwelling 36 Lower Ormond St
Census Place Chorlton On Medlock, Lancashire, England
Family History Library Film 1341936
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 3919 / 94
Page Number 10

have i come across Mary Cassam somewhere else recently??

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1872
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
CASSAM * William CARTER Mary Manchester, Hulme, St. Mary Manchester 68/1/338
CASSAM * William JOHNSON Mary Manchester, Hulme, St. Mary Manchester 68/1/338

showing mary's maiden name to be Johnson

possible???

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1858
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
CARTER George JOHNSON Mary Flixton, St Michael Trafford CE12/1/149

or

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1842
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
CARTER Henry JOHNSON Mary Manchester Collegiate Church (later Manchester Cathedral) Manchester CATH/24/45

Ann you're a star, I've seen that Cassam name before somewhere, probably in connection with early searches for Joseph. It's quite possible that she was married in 1842, if she was born around 1825 she'd have been 17.

Still leaves the gaping hole that is father Michael. In our family there was always the rumour that my great gran Ethel ( yes, you found her visiting her mother Catherine and her second husband Blackwell in 1901, and I think but am not sure that Martin is Ethel's brother, and Mary is her sister (Aunt Ria my Mum called her).

But there was always the rumour that Ethel was of proper Scottish or Irish descent, everyone thought they were Tinkers in fact, and I found that her maternal grandparennts (Charles and Ann Burns) were both born in Ireland.

Is it possible that Michael Carter and Mary could have married in Ireland or Scotland? If so how could we go about finding out? So many Carters came from Ireland it wouldn't surprise me at all. It's hard otherwise to see how Michael could avoid the censors etc so long and this marriage be nowhere to be found,

It was Dea who found the Blackwell census

If Martin should really have been Maria as shown previously that would fit nicely with Aunt Ria

did we come across the middle name of Wilson somewhere as well, I have come across it in looking at the Nathaniel etc family (can't remember which one now!)

I wonder if Joseph's father should really be Henry rather than Michael???

If he is consistently down on the census as born 1861 that usually means he was born between April 1860 and April 1861 (approx)

can't find a birth of a martin but there is a Maria which fits

Births Mar 1884 (>99%)
Carter Maria Manchester 8d 235

Hi Joe
just seen your other thread
could this be a possible marraige

John Thompson Morris

England Marriages, 1538–1973


marriage: 22 Oct 1817 —Manchester, Lancaster, England
spouse: Martha Coombes

record title: England Marriages, 1538–1973
groom's name: John Thompson Morris
bride's name: Martha Coombes
marriage date: 22 Oct 1817
marriage place: Manchester, Lancaster, England
groom's marital status: Widowed
bride's marital status: Widowed
indexing project (batch) number: M01235-2
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1545578

So it's been one of those days, and Sherlock will retire to his boudoir dejected to his opium den (i wish !!)

%3A-%5C

Carter remains on the run, and Charlotte is incarcerated but no-one knows why, not even the great Govenor Vince of Strangeways himself. Maybe he is too busy performing for the TV cameras? Never mind...

But maybe there is something can cheer our poor Sherlock up before he slips into his opium stupour?

He has received a document confirming that his great great great Grandad Samuel was Christened at Manchester Cathedral on 19th august 1821, and that...(hereto unknown for sure), his father was called John Morris and his mother was called Martha.

I have turned nothing up for their marriage or anything about them, as I had thought his wife was called Elizabeth Bradshaw...is it possible to find a marriage for Martha and John before i pour the powder into the vial? Thanks again... %3A-%29

Hi Joe
just seen your other thread
could this be a possible marraige

John Thompson Morris

England Marriages, 1538–1973


marriage: 22 Oct 1817 —Manchester, Lancaster, England
spouse: Martha Coombes

record title: England Marriages, 1538–1973
groom's name: John Thompson Morris
bride's name: Martha Coombes
marriage date: 22 Oct 1817
marriage place: Manchester, Lancaster, England
groom's marital status: Widowed
bride's marital status: Widowed
indexing project (batch) number: M01235-2
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1545578

Thanks Maddie, it's a pity it doesn't mention his job (Cordwainer ) on that -

i thought I had found his marriage with this one below, to Elizabeth, but maybe this was his first one - ?

Marriage: 29 Aug 1814 Collegiate, Manchester, Lancashire, England
John Morris - (X), Cordwainer Batchelor of this Parish and Town of Manchester
Elizabeth Bradshaw - (X), Spinster of this Parish and Town of Manchester
Witness: I Chantler; Benj'n Ball
Married by Banns by: C.D. Wray
Register: Marriages 1814, Page 343, Entry 1027
Source: LDS Film 1545577


I don't like the Thompson middle name, that is most odd for us, I don't know....thanks for trying...

I found this too but the job isn't right and the place doesn't grab me...



Marriage: 1 May 1815 St Wilfrid, Farnworth near Prescot, Lancashire, England
John Morris - (X), Husbandman of this Parish
Martha Pye - (X), Spinster of this Parish
Witness: William Pye; Ellen Pye
Married by Banns by: William Thompson - Minister
Register: Marriages 1813 - 1824, Page 31, Entry 91
Source: LDS Film 166235 item 5 :-( :-(

Well....Sherlock is just gonna have to buy birth certs for Carter around that time/region until he finds one that has a father Michael

A pain in the butt, but it comes to us all at some point

PLEASE can we not complicate this thread with info on the Morris family

its convoluted enough on the Morris thread

still wondering if Michael is actually Henry

not guilty this time! :-)

Ann, I know, but why would Joseph's marriage cert have Michael as his father?

Thanks for that birth for Maria too, Ann, I didn't have that.