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mgnv

I think the reason he changed units was because the Worcestershire Regt were so beaten up and when he and a number of other guys from the East kents arrived in France they were transferred from the Trg/Holding Depot to bolster the Worcs. A large number of E Kents/Worc soldiers appear on the CWGC site to confirm this.

Jan

I think I've got it!

Nathanial Rand b 1755 married Sarah Dellow b 1760

their son was William Rand b 27/2/1793 Therfield

he cohabits with Ann Lacey as described in the Hagger Files (which I didn't read properly) and their son is William Henry Rand b 1829

phew

many thanks to you all


so back to the original conundrum of Franks service

Potty - I'm not so sure abt favouring my first reason. Here's why (NB I'm not so familiar with the Brit experience as I am with Canadian, even though my grandad served with the Brits - driver with RE - I've got a traditional photo of him and his mates - all wearing gas masks - I've even got a photo of him with his favourite horse, Dolly - again both wearing gas masks.)

Anyways, the CEF had 600000 men in uniform, but 100000 of those conscripted never got to France - presumably there was also a fair # of the volunteers never got to France either. There were 172000 non-fatal casualties, so say 40% (there were also 60000 fatal casualties).

Now the Brits reorganized their depleted forces, I think in early 1918. They took all their old (4 battalion) brigades and formed pretty much the same # of new (3 battalion) brigades - they would have broken up the most wrecked bns, so say 20% of men came from broken up bns.

As well as wounding being twice as likely as breaking up, there's the timing too. Iain's Frank was transferred in Oct 1916,

What gives me pause is Oct 1916 is right after the Somme battles, and Iain said he transferred from the E Kents to the Worcs. I've seen records of wounded Canadians - they have a long chain of transfers - from the RAP to the Fld Ambulance Coy, then to the Casualty Clearing Station, then to a base hospital (or a chain of them) - this string could be broken by a recovery and, for Canadians, a transfer back to his unit .

mgnv, I think your first reason for the change of units is probably likely. A lot of units were almost completely destroyed and the survivors attached to a different regiment. I have seen records of many men who served in two or more regiments. We even have men recorded on our war memorial as serving in one regiment but their CWGC records give a different one - didn't make it easy to find them!

https://www.hertsdirect.org/ufs/ufsmain?formid=HALS_INDEXES

Not sure if you know of above link, (Hertfordshire Names online) has marriages, and various bits and pieces!.

Chris :)

Getting back to Frank's WW1 record. I'm wondering abt his serving in 2 units. There's 2 reasons that I can see:

Firstly, maybe the 8th E Kents got so wrecked, the battalion was broken up.
Secondly, Frank got wounded and transferred out of E Kents to 99th base hospital in Boulogne or whatever, and was then posted to 4th Worcs when he recovered. The Brits did that sort of thing - real crap man-management. The better thing would be to return him to his mates in his old unit - the Canadians, and I think the ANZACs, did this.

hmmm

so are we saying James Smith and Ann Smith (possibly nee Goodchild) were the parents of Nathan and Ann (actual DOB 1826) who appear in the 1841 census and they also had children James, Emma and Sarah.

James then does a runner or is transported.

Ann cohabits with a William Rand (DOB NK) and for Census purposes all of the above appear as Rands. They have children William (1829) Nathanial (1833) and Martha (1835)?

how does that sound?

so who is this william Rand who cohabits with Ann Smith and who is the James Rand and Ann who were the parents of william rand b Feb 1830?es Rand?

Jan
I believe William Henry Rand (bc 1829) married Eliza J Gatward at St Mary the Virgin Therfield 21 Dec 1865 and they had a dau Sarah born 21/5/1868?

many thanks jan and potty for the interest and comment...very grateful.

I've visited this martin hagger site and it does confirm the rand line back to william (1830) Rand and his mother Ann (1795) Rand.

I have a sneaking suspiscion that as potty thinks there were 2 families with Ann Rands in them both of which had sons about the same time called william!

What I cant reconcile is this birth record for william that potty has found with a marriage record for James Rand and Ann Goodchild of 1808. I cant believe they didn't have any children until 1821 (Nathan)and continued to have children till 1835 (Martha)? James Rand would have been 65 and as he doesn't appear on the 1841 census obviously died.

The 1841 census confirms
Ann Rand mother b c 1795 living in Carters Cottages with children Nathan b c 1821,
Ann b c 1829,
William b c 1829,
Nathaniel b c 1833
Martha b c 1835.

I dont think any online records can confirm 100% what Anns maiden name was (Smith or Goodchild) or who was the father of this brood (A william or James Rand)...I must confess I'm still trying to analyse the facts in Jans last 3 posts!!

If any blinding flash of fact or inspiration that leads you to suspect exactly what anns maiden name was or who the father was (even a percentage guess would be appreciated) please do not hesitate to let me knw

again many thanks

Iain.

could be the marriage Joseph not James Smith

JOSEPH SMITH
Pedigree
Male

Marriages:
Spouse: ANN LACEY
Family
Marriage:
26 AUG 1816 Therfield, Hertford, England


there is an email address for the site owner for Therfield ,it might be worth asking him about the James/Joseph etc and see what he thinks. He asks for info on links that "don't work" (unless i have got it wrong)

confused now as to which is right if this is same Emma and James from above
this from family search site
EMMA SMITH

29 MAR 1818 Therfield, Hertford, England
Death:
Burial:

Parents:
Father: JOSEPH SMITH
Family
Mother: ANN

Messages:
Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record



.JAMES SMITH
Pedigree
Male

Christening:
07 DEC 1816 Therfield, Hertford, England


Parents:
Father: JOSEPH SMITH
Family
Mother: ANN


Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record.

there is this entry on that site so i think it needs reading through carefully!!

In Baptismal Register Sarah Ann is entered as dau of William Henry & Eliza Jane GATWARD Hay Green Therfield Farmer - by the Rev __? Shafti ORDE. This is evidently a mistake and the surname ought to be RAND. Mrs. RAND says that her daughter was Christened at that time by Mr. ORDE. They were living at Hay Green. There were no people in the parish, married, having the name of Wm. Henry & Eliza Jane GATWARD. Mrs. RAND was the daughter of Thomas GATWARD, hence perhaps the mistake.

Note, James SMITH married Ann. He deserted his wife (or it is said was transported) who afterwards cohabited with William RAND

There are the following entries in the Baptismal Register

James, son of James & Ann SMITH, 7 Dec 1816

Emma, dau of James & Ann SMITH, 29 Mar 1818

Nathan Rand, son of James & Ann SMITH, 3 Jun 1821 [50]

Sarah, dau of Ann SMITH, 16 Nov 1823 [64]

Ann, dau of Ann SMITH, 16 Jul 1826 [23]

Wm. Henry, son of Ann SMITH, 23 Aug 1829

Nathanial, son of William & Ann RAND 3 Apr 1833, who was bur.4 Jan 1844

There was a daughter Martha [born 14 Apr 1836] but no Entry of Baptism, see pages [93] & [92]

Iain take a look at this site

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/martin.hagger1/Therfield/index.htm

and see if you can find anything that might help

looking good Potty

There a quite a few baptisms on familysearch for children of James Rand and Ann, not necessarily the children of the same couple, there may have been another James and Ann:

6. EMMA RAND - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 20 JUL 1817 Therfield, Hertford, England

7. HARRIET RAND - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 01 SEP 1811 Therfield, Hertford, England

8. LOUISA RAND - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 15 OCT 1820 Therfield, Hertford, England

9. GEORGE RAND - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 27 JUN 1824 Therfield, Hertford, England

10. GEORGE GOODSHELD RAND - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 16 JUL 1826 Therfield, Hertford, England

11. WILLIAM RAND - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 14 FEB 1830 Therfield, Hertford, England

12. NATHANAEL RAND - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 06 FEB 1814 Therfield, Hertford, England

13. ELIZA RAND - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 16 JUL 1809 Therfield, Hertford, England

14. SARAH RAND - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 18 JUL 1819 Therfield, Hertford, England

15. CAROLINE RAND - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 14 APR 1815 Therfield, Hertford, England

16. CAROLINE RAND - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 14 APR 1816 Therfield, Hertford, England

William's baptism (from the new familysearch):

William Rand
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 14 Feb 1830
Baptism/Christening Place: THERFIELD,HERTFORD,ENGLAND
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: James Rand
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Ann
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C07295-1
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 991334

Cheers jan

some good stuff there. A lot of my previous work hinges on confirming who the parents of William Rand (b 1829 Therfield) are. Like I said ive got a lot of leads from GR but I'm not convinced they are all correct?

I'm really hoping they are Annie Rand (nee Goodchild) b 1795 Baldock and James Rand b c 1776 Buckland

many thanks

iain

got to go out now will take another look later

I would think the information may have then come from this site http://www.familysearch.org/ a free site you can search but if it is a submitted entry then it means the person has not checked original records before entering it, this below is Extracted marriage record so has been checked but i haven't found any christening records yet for the children to confirm these are the right parents

JAMES RAND
Pedigree


Marriages:
Spouse: ANN GOODCHILD
Family
Marriage:
13 OCT 1808 Therfield, Hertford, England

1841
Name: William Rand
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Gender: Male
Where born: Hertfordshire, England
Civil parish: Therfield
Hundred: Odsey
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Country: England

Registration district: Royston
Sub-registration district: Royston


household Members: note 1841 census ages were rounded up/down to nearest 5 i.e Ann's Nathan's Ann's may not be the right age
Name Age
Ann Rand 45
Nathan Rand 20
Ann Rand 15
William Rand 12
Nathaniel Rand 8
Martha Rand 6

1851
ame: William Rand
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Ann Rand
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Therfield, Hertfordshire, England
Civil parish: Therfield
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Country: England


Name: Ann Rand
Age: 53
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1798
Relation: Head
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Therfield, Hertfordshire, England
Civil parish: Therfield
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Country: England