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stories stories stories- I love it!

I have a similar story.

I was about 15 when my mum came home in rather a shocked state from a day trip shopping in the nearby big town.

She then told me that she had been engaged to another man before she and dad married.

This man had gone to Canada to "make his fortune", leaving mum back in England .......... and promising to return after a year.

Apparently he had not returned after 2 years, although there had been communication, becasuse he had sent her a number of gifts.


Dad appeared on the scene some time during the second year, and had been pestering Mum for a date.

She told me that she eventually decided to give up on the other guy returning home, broke the engagement, got engaged to Dad ............ and the night before they married, she burnt all the gifts from Canada in the grate.


Janey ............... I now realise what she burnt ................ she described them as beaded handicrafts and other hand-made items, from what she called "Indians", somewhere in Ontario. Mid-1920s .............. sob, sob!



Anyway, that day she had seen this man in the centre of Manchester. He had recognised her, and called after her. He had not returned to England until war broke out in 1939, had lost a leg during the war, and was driving a taxi in M/c


She just had to tell someone ......... and that turned out to be me. I'm not sure that even dad knew the whole story.



But there's a little more modern version of the same story.


Would Mum have been happier with the other man?? Possibly! She and Dad were happy enough, but there always seemed to be something missing, at least on her side.


I have no idea of his name.

Thanks I'll check it out!

Yup, Herbert D Upsher married first in Exeter, and second in Devon Central, so I think that will be him. And daughter Margaret from first marriage. He must have just preferred his second name. ;)

The story reminds me of my grandmother. When she died, 20 years after my grandfather, my mum and I were doing the clearing and packing of their little house. In Grampa's basement workshop was her old photo album, the black pages with the photos in little sticky corners. There were pictures from from when she was a very young woman, around 1920 or a bit earlier, and one page had a picture missing.

Later that day we were working on her bedroom. In the bottom drawer of her bedside table, under everything else in the drawer, was the missing picture. It was her and a young man sitting on a log. We know that in her older years she made it rather plain she might have preferred not to marry my grandfather (he was a wonderful man but they weren't perfectly suited; just a bit of late-onset buyer's remorse, what might have been, I think), and maybe that was the young man she was thinking of. We don't know how long she had had it there, when she had last looked at it ... and we'll never ever know who he was.

I had just read the Barbara Vine (Ruth Rendell) book "Asta's Book", a family history mystery along those lines, and the feeling of melancholy was the same -- I recommend it!

Yes Herbert could have been the one as he was def .married before as he had a daughter called Margaret, just as Thora had a son called (Gordon) Brian from her previous marriage

He wasn't from the US as the letters I have from his mum and aunt wishing the couple well on their engagement were local- one from 15/11/46
17 Dean Street Larkleaze Exeter. Dennis must have been working in Exeter at the time of that letter as she describes him going off to work with a smile on his face...1943 would still be close when he wrote the 1945 letter-a desire to do his best for his daughter and to return were evident. he sounded quite depressed in that one, describing people as behaving like cannibals- god knows what atrocities he had witnessed although I don't think he saw much action.

Aha although it might have been Denis as that is how his mum spells it although I seem to recall on his own letter it is double d!
Is there any location for the herbert dennis?

Thanks again Janey

PS The strike was quite newsworthy as Cornwall was considerd unionfree see this link http://www.wheal-martyn.com/clayworkersstrike.html

Inquests -- what I've heard is that those records are ordinarily destroyed after a certain time, but you could approach the coroner's office local to the death to enquire, I'd think.

I doubt very much that you would find any records of workers involved in a strike in 1913!

For Cornwall newspapers ... someone more local may know -- my gr-grfather was born there and both sides of his family were there for generations before, but he immigrated here to Canada. ;) Local libraries strike me as a good point of contact.

You know, one thing we shouldn't forget is that women were vulnerable to assault and exploitation then (even as we are now), and contraception/termination weren't available at all. It's always possible that a married woman who had a child whose father wasn't her husband was in that situation. And husbands might not have been understanding enough to put their names on the birth certificates.

You did say in your OP:

"In 1913 she had my granny Thora May but there is no father's name on the certificate. I thought this meant that WBS must have died between the 1911 census and my granny's conception around April 1912.But I cant find it. Was he in fact still alive when his wife had Thora May?"

-- ah, I see, the info that Mabel was present at his death comes from the death certificate you have just obtained. Got it!


You're sure he was Dennis Upsher? There are only two births for that name, Denis 1927 (married 1954, died 1982) and Dennis 1932 (married 1955, died 1987) -- although there's a Herbert Denis Upsher born 1916. ... Ah, I was looking at a David Upsher in the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve, but he was killed in 1943, so not him. Japan -- might he have more likely been from the US? and met in England maybe.


edit -- Herbert D Upsher's first wife died in 1943 and he remarried in 1948 so that may well have been the one.

Janey

Mabel was at WBS seniors side when he died according to the death certificate - I also have a pic of her and a man I believe to be him which looks as if it might be 1920s (ie after Thora was born) Mabel was 27 when Thora was born(- that is an age when it is easy to stray from the fold!) She was very pretty and had a lovely sunny nature even as an old white-haired lady (despite all the tragedies)

Mabel remarried Charles Howard in 1943 a regimental Sgt Major - ironically -considering her son's death was by accidental shooting -he was a crackshot. who own prizes for his shooting(Pics of him are with soaped taches and stuffed deers heads!)

As for Thora she played her cards close to her chest ...we knew so little about her earlier life unitl recently. She had married in 1935 but her husband Edward Gordon Devonshire died during an airraid on Bristol aircraft factory in 1940 and her son my dad was born 2 months later. I have a letter to her from Dennis Upsher on a ship in Japan in 1945 who wanted to marry her - she must have agreed as I also have letters from his mum and aunt saying how pleased they were that she had accepted his offer of marriage. But for some mysterious reason she didnt marry him and instead married Henry Harold Michel of Trethellan farm near Lanjethon the 5/11/1951 I have a love letter he wrote to her in 1950(which she kept) written whilst he recovered from a nasty fall from a hay load coupled with being butted by a ram. He wrote the letter whilst lying in bed at Treyarnon House (his sisters house I think) looking out at the bathers in the sea and longing to see her , his "beautiful blue-eyed lass".

A couple more queries:
There was an inquest into William Biddick Stone juniors death- does anyone know where a copy of that inquest might be kept? Or where Cornish newspaper articles from the 1930s could be found?

Also does anyone know hwree there might be lists of those China Clay workers involved in the 1913 St Austell strike ?

Thanks again for all the help!

Sarah

Births Mar 1886
VARCOE Mabel St Austell 5c 123

Do you know the details of Mabel's death?

I'm not seeing a Mabel Stone death to match. I'm just wondering whether she had partnered with someone else ... and maybe married him after William Sr.'s death.

For instance, there's a Mabel Stone marriage in St Austell in 1943, and I don't see a birth to account for that Mabel well.

I suppose Thora May knew William Stone as her father though and all this is all just wild speculation. ;)

The Cornwall online census project results that Ann o' GG posted ... to give the URL you have to actually click on it and copy it ... just copying the search result doesn't copy the link ...

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kayhin/82295.html

1881—Transcript of Piece RG11/2295
Enumeration District 7
Civil Parish of Little Petherick, Eccl. District of -

There are hundreds of names there. Not surprising that two surnames would both appear in the list. There are gazillions of Biddicks and probably more Stones on that page of census entries.


I've found that it's not uncommon for a surname as a middle name to be the father's mother's or grandmother's surname, for instance, rather than the mother's surname.



"Hence an affair and illegitimate child while her husband was alive...surprised she was able to keep it- I suppose he forgave her?"

Is it not more likely they were permanently estranged by the time the child was born and after that?

Thank you Sylvia for your help

UPDATE

I got the 2nd death certificate-william biddick senior died of bronchial pneumonia- I believe that as a china clay labourer lung problems were occupational hazards- this could have been a complication after the motorbike and cows accident so doesn't rule this out as being involved in his death.

By the way does anyone know where I could find out any list of names of miners who were involved in the 1913 China Clayworkers st austell strike?

Thank you for letting us know.


so the dates that your dad remembered a little wrong, but the essential facts correct.



sylvia

Just FYI ....I have got hold of the 1939 death certificate of william biddick stone junior-my granny's brother - he died of gas gangrene after a severe laceration of his arm caused in a shooting accident aged 28 in 1939 a year after his dad died in a cow/motorbike accident .

And I also got my grannys 1813 birth cert and discovered no fathers name on it- yet her mum's husband was alive until 1938. Hence an affair and illegitimate child while her husband was alive...surprised she was able to keep it- I suppose he forgave her?

no through ancestry I think- foolish me

Hi

Can I suggest that you Google 'Biddick family history'. Looks like some interesting pages.

Jill

Oh dear!


did you order the cert through GR?

Rats - I have found and ordered the birth certs but for 25 pounds each - thanks for the tip- for next time!

I looked and looked for william biddick stone senior's death cert between 1910 when his son was born and 1912 as my granny was born with no father on the birth certificate in 1913 and I really couldnt find him- will have to wait and see when the certificates come

He might have remained with her and her child but refused to put his name on the actual certificate- maybe he was away and the community knew it couldnt have been his?

The plot thickens!

Thnaks so much for your help- brilliant!

Sarah

I found them I think!

WBS died much later than I thought - 1938 and his namesake son tragically the following year. I had thought that as his name didnt appear on my grannys birth certficate that he had died and my granny was the result of a liason out of wedlock then- but now realise that she must have had an affair whilst married

Thanks Ann
x

The place to look for all births amrriages and deaths is www.freebmd.org.uk ..... at least from 1 July 1837 up to about 1950. Volunteers are always adding more transcriptions, and this site will eventually carry them up to about 1983


I found this death on there, which looks like William jr

Deaths Jun 1939 (>99%)

Stone William B 28 St Austell 5c 96


St Austell is the registration district that includes St Mewan

You have to buy the certificate in order to see the details.


But there is also this one .... which could fit William Sr

Deaths Jun 1938 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stone William B 51 St.Austell 5c 94



In case you don't know how to buy a certificate

.......... go to www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

click on Ordering Certiifcates.

You ahve to register, but it is free to join the site.


Each certificate costs £9.25


NEVER pay any more than that




sylvia

Sarah

Just one thing


if a married woman has a child that child is automatically assumed to be the child of her husband .......... even if he has been dead for 10 years


so it is not wise to assume that a husband is the father until you actually do find his death registration.




sylvia

Great thanks for that annoyingly both deaths were after 1910